IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg.

An IFS Approach to Foster

Secure Internal Attachment

With Richard Schwartz, PhD, and Megan Schmidt, PhD

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 2

Dr. Schmidt: Hello everyone, and welcome on behalf of Dr. Ruth Buczynski and all of us here
at NICABM, we're very excited to share today's much anticipated program with Dr. Richard
Schwartz on an IFS approach to building secure internal attachment. So, we can have Dick
wave hello. I'm going to do a little more intro. I'm your host and staff psychologist here at
NICABM Dr. Megan Schmidt, and I'm very pleased to be with you all today. Most of you know
Dick Schwartz as the creator of Internal Family Systems Therapy and the founder of the IFS
Institute that offers IFS training and resources to practitioners worldwide at [Link].

Dick has also authored numerous articles and books on IFS, and highly relevant to today's
program is his book You Are the One You've Been Waiting For that shares how we can all build
secure internal attachment and transform how we experience intimate relationships with
others. His most recent publication is The newly released Internal Family Systems Workbook,
A Guide to Discover Yourself and Heal Your Parts.

So, without further ado, I'd like to extend our warmest welcome to Dick and to thank you Dick
for choosing to spend time with all of us today to learn together. And thanks to all of you for
being here with us.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Thank you, Megan and hi everybody. It's been a while since I've done a
program for NICABM, so it's good to be back. I know you guys spell it out, but that's the way I
always refer to you guys. And yeah, I see a couple friends and a lot of faces that I don't
recognize, and I'M kind of humbled that there's so much interest, there's so many of you. So
yeah, looking forward to this. I don't always present on attachment theory and how it ties into
IFS, so it's forced me to kind of go back into that world and think about it more, which has
been interesting. I hope it'll be interesting to you as well.

So yeah, I plan to talk a little about that and to describe IFS and the technique because I
assume that some of you probably don't fully know it. In fact, maybe I'll just ask, even though
I see a few of you. How many people don't know much about IFS? Raise your hand.

Okay. So yeah, I do need to describe it clearly, and like Megan said, I plan to show a video
which I'm very grateful to a guy named Eamon for letting me use. And then probably after
that in the second half, we'll do at least one experiential exercise. So that's what I have in
mind. You can put your hands down unless you have a question. I saw somebody already
raised a hand, so if there is something you want to ask right now, keep your hand up. So, all
right, Sarah, you got to unmute.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 3
Sarah: I just realized I do have a question. Is this going to be recorded and sent to us?

Dr. Schmidt: Yes. So, Sarah, you might've missed that in the intro. People are coming on
slightly later. You will all receive an email in the coming days about how to claim either type of
credit, CE credit live or home study, full transcript, full recording, and you can reach out to
customer service at any time to ask questions about that. We'll reiterate throughout today.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: It's a very good deal. So, I'm just going to dive in then. So first, let me
just say, because there are things when I present in the past that I've said that I don't like
about attachment theory. But in general, I love attachment theory and I consider IFS an
attachment-based model, but different from most other attachment-based models of therapy
in ways that we'll get into as we go through this.

But for me, attachment theory was and still remains a really important corrective to the
dominant therapies that existed at the time and still exist, including CBT and the traditional
form of analysis. CBT, where you're correcting irrational thoughts, traditional analysis where
you're giving interpretations. And also, to the form of family therapy that I learned and
professed until I ran into parts phenomena, which was called structural family therapy, all of
whom were much more cerebral and didn't put a lot of focus on the presence of the therapist
as important. And at least structural family therapy didn't think much about the past and the
impact of the past on the present, and
instead was all focused on changing these
“First, the idea that what happened present relationships and families.
to you as a child has a kind of
imprint that carries on throughout Attachment theory was a big corrective to
your life, turns out to be very true those things. It didn't influence me in IFS until
and important.” later, and I'll describe why shortly. But it's a
huge contribution. First, the idea that what
happened to you as a child has a kind of
imprint that carries on throughout your life, turns out to be very true and important. So yeah,
anyway, attachment theory.

I'll get into some of that, but first, let me describe IFS as briefly as I can, but to make it clear.
So, to do it, I'm going to go back in time myself about 41 years now to a time when I was a
kind of an obnoxious family therapist, structural family therapist who believed, not only was
the past not that important, but mucking around in the inner world wasn't important. You
could change everything by just reorganizing these family patterns and restructuring these
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 4
family relationships. And I was a pretty recent graduate from a PhD program in family therapy
and was determined to prove that.

So with a colleague, Mary Jo Barrett and I gathered together, I was at a place called the
Institute for Juvenile Research in Chicago, and we gathered together 30 bulimic kids in their
families and did straight structural family therapy with them and found, at least my clients,
didn't realize they'd been cured even though we had reorganized the families just right
because they kept binging and purging. Out of frustration, I began asking why and they
started to teach this model to me because they started talking to me was a strange language
of parts.

They would say some version of "When something bad happens in my life, it triggers this critic
who starts calling me names inside. That makes me feel totally worthless and alone and
empty. And that feeling is so distressing that almost to the rescue comes the binge part and
takes me out and makes me an unfeeling eating machine. But the binge then brings back the
critic who now is calling me a pig on top of the other names, and that criticism goes right to
the heart of that worthless empty part, makes that part feel worse. So, then the binge comes
in bigger."

I'm listening to all this being, I love systems

thinking. And so, it's sounding like a system. It's “I got very intrigued by this,
sounding like these interactions among players and because I didn't know any
that are very similar to the families. We would
better, I made the mistake that
study these vicious circles in families and how
one interaction leads to another, but then it most of the field actually still
circles back and so on. So, I got very intrigued makes, including the
by this, and because I didn't know any better, I attachment field, which is to
made the mistake that most of the field actually assume that these parts are
still makes, including the attachment field, what they seem to be.”
which is to assume that these parts are what
they seem to be.

So, the critic is some kind of internalization of a critical parent voice, and the binge is an out-
of-control impulse. And when you think of them that way, you don't have that many options
in terms of how do you help your client deal with them. I was getting my clients to argue with
the critic, stand up for themselves and try to control the binge, and they were getting worse.
But I was like the man in a hole with a shovel. I didn't know what else to do, but dig deeper, so
stand up stronger, control more, and they were getting still worse.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 5
I had one client who in addition to the binging, would cut herself on her wrists, and that was
driving me crazy to have somebody do that on my watch. So, I decided one session I wasn't
going to let her leave until the cutting part had agreed not to do it to her that week. By then I
had heard about the gestalt empty chair technique where you could actually have somebody
sit in a chair and be one of their parts and have them move back and be themselves, and you
could kind of monitor a dialogue between themselves and the parts. I was doing that. So, we
have the cutting part in one chair and I'm badgering it to not do it, and she is too. And after a
couple hours of both of us ganging up on it finally said, "Okay, I won't cut her this week." And
of course, I opened the door to the next session, and she has a big gash down the side of her
face.

And that was a turning point in the history of this model because I shifted and I shifted out of
that kind of, "Okay, we're going to control you" place to simply giving up and saying that to
the part because I can see this is a dangerous game and I can't win it. We can't win basically, is
what I said. So why do you do this to her? Out of that kind of collapse, but also curiosity. And
the part talked about how when she was being abused as a child, it needed to get her out of
her body, and it needed to contain the rage that would get her more abuse. The cutting was a
way to do that.

That was the big turning point in the history of this model because I shifted again, now I'm not
just curious, but I have a kind of appreciation for the heroic role it played in her life, and I
could convey that to the part, and it broke into tears because everyone had vilified it and tried
to get rid of it just the way I had been doing before. And finally, somebody is listening to it. It
talked also about the other parts in the
system, the parts that are protected. Yeah.
“I could convey that to the part, So, as I tried that same process of just getting
and it broke into tears because curious or getting my clients to be curious,
everyone had vilified it and tried to rather than fighting with or hating or being
get rid of it just the way I had been afraid of their parts, it turned out that all
doing before.” these parts had stories to tell once your client
just got curious about them. And at some
point, I started to think maybe there are no
bad parts, which is the title of my last book.
And 40 some years later, I can absolutely say there are no bad parts. So basic assumption, one
basic assumption, and this is different from attachment theories that most of whom still
subscribe to what I call the mono-mind paradigm, that we have one mind and out of that
mind come emotions and thoughts and attachment patterns and so on, but they aren't
connected to any little entities inside.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 6
But that's true of many, many different models of therapy. And so, this says no, that these
parts exist and they're with us from birth, that it's the natural state of the mind to be multiple,
that people who used to be called multiple personality disorder now called DID are no
different from anybody on this call, except that their parts have been blown apart much more
by the horrific trauma they suffering and burdened. We'll get into what that means shortly
and frozen in time.

But having full-range personalities is no different.

What they call alters is the same as what I'm “What they call alters is the
calling parts, and that's kind of a radical position. same as what I'm calling
That they're natural that they're not the product parts, and that's kind of a
of trauma. That's the other paradigm and the radical position. That they're
trauma-based paradigm that says, "Yeah, we see
natural that they're not the
that there are these parts, but the mind is
naturally unitary, but it got blown apart by the product of trauma.”
trauma into this sort of shards of the broken
vase."

And for me, that's still pathologizing the parts because the goal then becomes to help them
disappear and put Humpty Dumpty back together again, which is not the goal of IFS. One of
the goals of IFS is, well, I'll give you the four goals of IFS. So, the first one is to help these parts
transform out of their extreme states to be who they're designed to be, which is always
valuable. When I say there are no bad parts, it's better than that. They're all good parts, they
all have valuable qualities and resources to help us in our lives that they wouldn't exist if they
didn't.

But trauma and other attachment injuries or experiences in life do force them out of their
naturally valuable states into roles that can be quite destructive both internally and in the
outside world, but that's not who they are. And again, there's a direct parallel to family
therapy. What we found in families was these acting out kids, their behaviors, even though
they were given these terrible diagnoses, that's not who they were. Once we could reorganize
the families so they weren't the scapegoat anymore, they weren't in that role anymore, and
they could be who they really were, they were quite different. It turns out it's the same with
this inner family.

Parts forced out of their naturally valuable states into extreme roles and burdened by the
beliefs and emotions that came into you during the trauma. So, what I'm going to call burdens
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 7
are these beliefs and emotions that our parts take on from these experiences that came into
them, came into your system during the experiences and attach to these parts, and then drive
the way they operate like a virus. In attachment theory, some of the burdens would be called
the internal working model, the beliefs you have about the world and how dangerous it is or
not that a lot of these protective parts would carry. That would be one set of burdens.

And they're also frozen in time during the trauma, such that if I was working with one of you
and I had you focus, and we might do this in the experiential exercise, focus on say a critic
inside. I would have you get curious about it and ask it how old it thinks you are. It seems like
an odd question, but if you were to ask it how old it thinks you are, most of you would get a
single digit answer. Most of these parts think you're still five years old and they have to
protect you in the way they did back then because they're frozen back in that time. So good
parts forced out of their naturally valuable states
burdened with these extreme beliefs and emotions
“Most of these parts think and frozen in the past.
you're still five years old
and they have to protect So that's parts. And again, as a systems thinker, I was
you in the way they did confronted with all this, and it seemed chaotic. So, I
back then because they're started to try and make a map of this territory. What I
frozen back in that time.” found was there's a set of parts who before they got
hurt, you would call these inner children who were
very, not only young, but playful and loving and open
and innocent and creative. But they're also the most sensitive parts of us. They get hurt the
most by the slings and arrows in life and by the attachment injuries. They're the ones that
take on the big attachment injuries from our parents, our caretakers. And once they get
injured like that, they carry the burden now of terror or of worthlessness or of emotional pain
or a sense of abandonment and betrayal and so on and so on.

Those are the kinds of burdens that these young sensitive parts of us take on. And once they
get burdened like that, we don't want anything to do with them because they can pull us back
into those scenes and they can overwhelm us with all that emotion. It's like flames of raw
motion come pouring in and take us out. It's hard to function. So, we almost naturally try to
get away from them and lock them in inner basements or abysses. I call those exiles and
that's one class of burdened parts. And it's, again, as I described these different roles, it's
important to remember that these are just roles. They're not the nature of the parts. They're
in these roles because of what happened.

So, once you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate, the world seems more dangerous.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 8
Your internal working model of the world is that it's very dangerous. And so, there's another
set of parts who are forced to become protectors. Some of them protect you by preempting
anything that might trigger your exiles or hurt you again. People, for example, with avoidant
attachment styles are dominated by parts that are going to keep you from getting close to
anybody, and shut down if you start to, or find ways to get to distance people.

People who are classified as, what's the other one, the needy one, anxiously attached, are
dominated by parts that are trying constantly to get somebody to take care of these exiles,
and can become very dependent or clingy or demanding at times. So that's a common role for
protectors also. And then people with the disorganized classification have a lot of different
protectors that do a lot of different things. We can get more into that as we go. So, what I'm
saying about all that is for me, what are called attachment styles are simply the activities of
the protectors that are dominating the client. And for me, that's a much simpler and easier to
work with understanding of attachment styles.

So, the parts I've been describing so far are trying to manage your life. They're trying to
preempt anything that might trigger the exiles. They're trying to keep everything under
control, including yourself. And some of them also become these critics because they don't
know what else to do but yell at you to try and get you to behave and try to get you to look
perfect, so you don't get rejected or get you to perform at a high level. So, you get accolades
to counter the worthlessness. Or they're yelling at you to try and keep you small, so you never
take any risks. Critics, even though they're nasty,
are just desperately trying to protect you also. “Critics, even though they're
Some of them become these massive caretaking
parts that women in particular have to inherit. And
nasty, are just desperately
they don't let you take care of yourself. They just trying to protect you also.
have to take care of everybody else, so no one Some of them become these
abandons you or so on. So these are just a few of massive caretaking parts that
the common, what we call manager protector women in particular have to
roles. And again, they have in common the need to inherit. And they don't let
preempt, the need to control, need to please you take care of yourself.”
people in general.

Dr. Schmidt: Dick, I'd like to just pop in real quick and say thank you. I'm noticing people
raising your hands, and if you could please submit your questions in the chat box that will
allow everyone, we've got an overflow room. If Dick only calls on folks on Zoom, there's a lot
of folks that also want to ask questions in the overflow room, and that ensures everybody
gets a chance. And when it feels good in your flow, Dick, there's some folks that are asking
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 9
you to follow up on the four goals. You began it and then you're giving us a great romp
through parts and you're hitting some really good stuff. But to help you go back to that when
you have a moment, please.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Thank you. I'll try to remember and if I don't, please remind me.

Okay, so that's managers. It's one class of protector. And in attachment theory that would
probably be called the defenses. And the world has a way of breaking through those defenses
and triggering your exiles. And when that happens, it's a big emergency. As I said, these raw
flames of emotion are pouring out of your gut and are starting to consume you, and you're
getting all these flashback memories and you're feeling all the panic that you felt as a kid or
you're feeling all the hurt and all that.

It's terrifying to other parts. It's a lot of these protectors are really scared you're going to die if
you keep feeling all this. And so, there's another set of parts who sit around waiting for this
emergency and then immediately go into action to get you away from it, to get you away from
the exiles' raw feelings, flames of emotion. We call them firefighters, and some of them will
do it by trying to douse the flames with some substance or get you higher than the flames
until they burn themselves out or distract you somehow until they burn themselves out. And
most all of us have, if you've got a lot of exiles, you're going to have a lot of managers. You're
going to also have a lot of firefighters. Many of us have a kind of hierarchy of the firefighters.
If the first one doesn't work, we go to the next one. If that doesn't work, we go to the next
one.

At the top of the hierarchy for most all of us is suicide. It's very comforting to know there's a
kind of escape plan if things get too hot, and we all get so scared of these suicidal parts, but
they're just trying to protect you. And if they can
be convinced there's an alternative to taking you
“Beneath the suicidal part, out, they won't kill you. They know they're going
there are rage parts, there are down with the ship. But beneath the suicidal part,
there are rage parts, there are addict parts, there
addict parts, there are all kinds
are all kinds of other kinds of firefighter activities.
of other kinds of firefighter There are dissociative parts and so on.
activities. There are
dissociative parts and so on.”
People with that label of disorganized attachment
have lots of firefighter activity of various kinds,
which is why it looks disorganized to the therapist, even though it's really not disorganized.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 10
They're just doing their best to try and keep things organized to keep the exiles at bay. So
that's my take on some of these attachment styles.

The big deal about IFS, I mean this is a pretty big deal, is that there are no bad parts and they
all deserve a voice. These protectors are really just trying to protect. And I didn't believe that
fully because I said, "Okay, yeah, maybe these critics aren't so bad, really, and they're trying to
protect, and maybe these binge parts." And I wound up working with some other clients with
the cutting parts or trying to protect, but what about people who murder people? Or what
about people who molested little kids? So on and so on. It wasn't until I spent some time
consulting to a treatment center for sex offenders and actually worked with those clients this
way and learned from the parts that had molested little kids and had raped women and had
actually murdered people and worked with those parts.

They would show scenes from when the person, the kid was being abused as a child, and it
wasn't always sex abuse, but was being abused. And this part said, "Who has power in this
room? It's this guy doing this to me. I'm going to take in his energy to protect my person from
him." Then the part gets stuck with this urge to hurt vulnerability, and that attachment theory
says that carries over and it organizes his life. When he gets triggered, he has this impulse to
go hurt some vulnerable person, and that sometimes would team up with the sexual part,
because then they could throw a coup and take over that way.

So once I ran into that and saw that over and over, that's when I could conclude there are no
bad parts. Again, this is a radically different approach, radically different belief system. At our
annual conference that's in a few weeks, maybe less than a few weeks, it's coming up very
quickly. We're going to do a plenary on restorative justice and try to reform the judicial system
around this. Two of the people who are going to be present are working in the prisons, are
working on restorative justice and using IFS. That's a big focus of mine now. And what if
prisons could be places of healing instead of what they are? So, I don't know how I got off on
that.

Let me see. Oh yeah, so the big deal about IFS though is that in addition to these parts,
there's an essence in everybody that I'll talk about now. I just stumbled into this discovery,
honestly, because I had studied some attachment theory, and most of you who have, I believe
that for people to have these qualities in them, what we call the eight C words of self-
leadership, they had to have had a certain kind of parenting as a child. If they didn't get that,
then they were out of luck until they got it from a therapist or they got it from a partner, a life
partner. It comes from relationships. It's not inherent in us.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 11
I would start trying to get my clients to listen to their parts that they hated. And so maybe I'm
having you try to talk to or listen to have a decent conversation with your critic, let's say. And
it's going okay, then all of a sudden you're hating the
critic. It reminded me of family sessions where I'm
“It reminded me of family having two family members talk to each other, two
sessions where I'm having very polarized family members, and it's going okay,
two family members talk to and suddenly a third member jumps in and sides with
each other, two very one against the other and it goes south. We learned
as family therapists to ask that third person to step out
polarized family members,
of the line of vision of the other two, so we had a
and it's going okay, and better boundary around that. And when we did that,
suddenly a third member things would settle down and they would have a
jumps in and sides with decent conversation.
one against the other and
it goes south.” I started thinking maybe the same thing's happening
with this inner system. Maybe as I'm having you try to
get to know your critic, a part who hates the critic has
jumped in and is doing the talking. So, I started saying to clients, "Could you find the one who
is doing the talking? Who hates the critic? Could you ask it basically to step out? Could you
ask it to just separate for a while and not interfere? Could you ask it to relax back?" Some
version of that. And to my amazement, clients would say, "Okay, it did." I would say, "Now
how do you feel toward the critic?" And it'd be an entirely different answer. Seconds earlier,
they hated it or they were terrified of it. We get those parts to open space and it's like this
other person pops out who is curious about it, just says, yeah, I'm interested in why it does
this, why it calls me names all day. Seconds earlier, hated it, scared of it. Now is calm relative
to it, confident relative to it, curious about it. Also, often out of the blue has compassion for it,
says something like, "I feel sorry for it, that it has to do this." And in that state, when people
would access that, the part would relate in a really good way, and they would just be curious
and they could get to know the part and honor it for its service and things would go really
well.

When I did that same process of getting parts to separate in other clients, it's like the same
person would pop out with those same C-word qualities: calm, curious, confident,
compassionate. And then we have four others that characterize what I'm going to call self,
which include courage, clarity, creativity, and connectedness. Those are what we call the eight
C's of self-leadership.

And that was amazing because like I said, I'd learned the opposite from attachment theory.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 12

And I was working with people who not only had not good enough parenting but had been
tortured on a daily basis as a child. There was no way they could have gotten any of that from
their parents. When I would ask clients, "What
part of you is that? Let's keep that around," they
would say some version of, "That's not a part like “We can safely say that that
these others. That's me, that's myself." So, I came
self is in everybody, can't be
to call that the Self with a capital S to distinguish it
from the ordinary use of the word self. Now 40
damaged, is just beneath the
some years later, thousands of clients later, surface of these parts, such
thousands of therapists using this all over the that when they open space, it
world now. We can safely say that that self is in pops out and knows how to
everybody, can't be damaged, is just beneath the heal, knows how to become
surface of these parts, such that when they open that good attachment figure
space, it pops out and knows how to heal, knows
in the inner world.”
how to become that good attachment figure in the
inner world.

That's one of the big contrasts between attachment-based therapies and IFS because most
attachment-based therapies, the goal is to create a really safe environment with the client so
that they can have a different relational experience which will correct that internal, what did I
say about it?, worldview or whatever you call it. So the therapist in a sense becomes that
missing good attachment figure. In IFS, the therapist's role is not all that different except that
it's helping foster the client's self to become that good attachment figure. And that's a huge
difference. We can talk more about that as we go. And it's really because they don't know
about self. They think that it has to come through the client-therapist relationship. Internal
working model is the word I was trying to think of.

Okay, so Self is the big deal and as I say, I couldn't ground that observation in traditional
psychology. It wasn't until some students actually said, "Well, maybe this is Atman in
Hinduism," or "Maybe this is Buddha nature in Buddhism," or "Maybe this is like Christ
consciousness in Christianity." And I started to look in those directions, which was all new to
me because I was basically raised in a scientific atheistic family and basically held those views.

And lo and behold, virtually every spiritual tradition has a word for this, whereas almost no
other therapies do, and describe it basically the same way. The difference between IFS and
many of those, however, is that in many of those traditions, what they call whatever they call
it, is more of a passive observer state to achieve than an active leader. But I was finding that
the Self in my clients would actively take over and knew how to relate to these parts in a
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 13
healing way. So that's the theory of the model. And then shortly I'll talk about how it works
practically and then show an example. But let me pause here, Megan, and just see what kind
of questions are coming.

Dr. Schmidt: Great, thank you. Dick. Could you go back to the four goals of IFS? I heard you
say help the parts transform out of their extreme states into their more naturally possessed
qualities.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Their naturally valuable states. Yeah. So that's the first goal, is to help
them transform, which again, a lot of traditions say, no, you should just accept them the way
they are. They don't know that they can change. So this is kind of radical too, just they can all,
especially once they unburden, they will naturally transform into their naturally valuable
state. So that's the first goal.

The second goal is for the parts to come to trust

“The second goal is for the Self as the leader, because many of them are like
parts to come to trust Self as what we used to call in family therapy, parentified
the leader, because many of children. They're young and they think they have to
them are like what we used to run things. And like I said, they're stuck back in
time when they did have to take over to protect
call in family therapy,
you. And they kind of get stuck in that role of being
parentified children. They're your big protector, running your life, even though
young and they think they they're not equipped. Helping them trust there is
have to run things.” this good leader in there and that it's possible for
them to relax and just let you handle the world. So
that's the second goal.

The third goal is to create harmony among these parts because many of them are polarized.
They're polarized protectors, different protectors thinking they have to protect you in
different ways, opposite ways often. Or many of the protectors hate the exiles. They hate the
fact that you have that in there and they have to work so hard, and they hate that
vulnerability. They try to keep you strong and tough all the time.

So, helping the parts get to know each other and depolarize and work together and find that
they have the same goal in common, which is your safety and health. And when that happens,
it's almost like they disappear, but they don't, because now you just feel this sort of sense of
integration because they're not outliers, they're not exiles. Everybody's working together with
you, trusting you to be the leader.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 14
The fourth goal is to bring that self-leadership to your external world so that you relate to
other people from those eight C's. And also, when you get more access to self, you get more
clarity. That's one of those C words. You get more clarity about your direction in your life,
about a purpose in your life, you have the
clarity to see injustice and you get more
motivated to counter injustice. You become “You get more clarity about your
much more active in the outside world. You direction in your life, about a
have the courage, another C word, to act. So purpose in your life, you have
those are the four goals. the clarity to see injustice and
you get more motivated to
Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. I'm going to ask a counter injustice. You become
couple submitted questions. Sounds like it's a much more active in the outside
good time for you, Dick.
world. You have the courage,
another C word, to act.”
Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

Dr. Schmidt: Great. Maria is asking, are burdens the same as exiles? How do we think about
that?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, exiles carry burdens as new protectors. All the parts that are in
extreme roles carry burdens, but they are not the burdens. And that's the big mistake that
most of psychotherapy has made, to assume that the part is the burden that it carries.

Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. I'm going to stay on this thread with you with the submitted
questions about attachment styles and how they relate. Someone is asking, Rebecca Beaver is
asking, about parts that play out their insecure attachment styles toward the Self having a
hard time trusting the Self, feeling resistant. And that might fall under this goal of number
two. How do we help parts come to trust the Self?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: That's right. Yeah. So many protectors don't trust Self because Self
didn't protect. When you got hurt as a kid, you didn't have the body to protect yourself and
there wasn't access to the same level of Self that you can have now. So, because these
protectors had to take over, they lose trust in Self and they think they need to blend with you,
they need to take over that way all the time. So those parts don't trust Self. And then often
when I'll finally get permission from protectors to go to the exiles, which we don't go without
permission, the exiles don't trust Self. You'll see this little kid in there and or she will turn its
back on you and say, "Where were you when I needed you? You abandoned me, you locked
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 15
me up. Why should I trust you?" Good point. And there needs to be a kind of repair, an
attachment repair. So yeah, most parts don't trust Self when we start out.

Dr. Schmidt: Dick, would you elaborate on what an attachment repair process might look like?
How might a therapist help a client with that? The repair between a part that felt abandoned
and the client's Self.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So, Megan, if I was working with you and you saw this little girl turn her
back on you and say, "I don't trust you," I would say, "How do you feel toward her now,
Megan?" And go ahead and say whatever you would say.

Dr. Schmidt: I would feel overcome with sorrow.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: You would feel sad that you did something like that.

Dr. Schmidt: Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I would say, "Okay, let her know you're really sorry. You're really sorry
that you did this to her or that you allowed these protectors to do this to her.” And see how
she reacts to your apology. So, I'm really having you just do what I had families do in the
outside world in terms of repair. And often you know to do that. You just sort of take over and
start doing it. And the difference is in my family therapy work, it would take many sessions to
solidify that repair. But in this inner world, most of these parts, once they get that apology
and they feel it's coming from your heart, then they trust you again. It doesn't take that long.

Dr. Schmidt: It occurs to me that seems like such a central question in bringing Self online,
how do you feel towards whatever.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: It's absolutely the central question. Yeah, I'll talk more about the
technique shortly, but yeah, that's right.

Dr. Schmidt: Great. Do you have time for like about one or two more questions?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 16
Dr. Schmidt: I'm trying to really honor some questions that are a little simpler. People are so
excited to ask complex case questions and perhaps we'll get there, but I want to honor that
this first part has been a number of people raise their hands and say, "I'm unfamiliar." You're
describing some core tenets, and so I'm going to ask a few more of these questions for folks.
Winnie F is asking, what do you mean by the natural states of the different parts? What are
those?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Well, each part is different, just like each kid in the family is different, in
terms of its naturally valuable state. But when you get to these exiles and you help them
unburden and get them out of where they're
stuck in the past, they're just playful little kids.
And now whereas when they were exiled, you “You get more clarity about your
didn't have access to that playfulness or to that
direction in your life, about a
creativity, you had locked it up.
purpose in your life, you have
the clarity to see injustice and
Now suddenly you feel much more playful, and
you get more motivated to
you have access to all those qualities that you'd
locked away. Protectors sometimes when they counter injustice. You become
unburden, they become these kinds of wise much more active in the outside
advisors, and they can help you figure out world. You have the courage,
problems and give you a sense of who's safe another C word, to act.
and who's not without the extremity of their
overreactions. So, when you're thinking a lot of
times what you're doing is just listening to these unburdened protectors trying to help you
that way. So, lots of different natural valuable states.

Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. And then next I'm going to ask, Dick, is just to have you elaborate a
little more on recognizing and differentiating between the internal parts with different
attachment styles. You touched on that throughout the last hour, and it was really interesting.
You did this reframe of attachment styles or really just the activities of protectors that are
dominating the client and keeping that exiled emotion at bay. Can you just say a little bit more
about how that reframe might change the work of how we help people with what we think of
as particular attachment styles?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. Well, if you think of it that way, then if somebody is very, very
avoidant, you want to help, or they'll often come because they want help with their
avoidance. So, if that was you, Megan, I would just have you focus on that part that tells you
not to open yourself to anybody and tells you the world is so dangerous and so on. Just focus
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 17
on that for a second and find it in your body, around your body. And then this question you
identified is so powerful, how do you feel toward that part that's telling you these things?

And from there, we just start to do the work. So, it's very different than having to, through my
relationship with you, help you become convinced or help that part become convinced that at
least one relationship is safe. You know what I'm saying? And then hopefully it'll generalize to
other relationships, because as we get to know that avoidant part and we heal what it
protects, it will transform into its naturally valuable state, which often is the opposite of the
role it's been in.

The critics often want to become your cheerleaders, and the avoidant parts want to get you
out in the world. It's just a very different way not only of understanding attachment issues,
but also helping them change. It's much more sort of practical in a sense. And yeah. We can't
hear you, Megan.

“The critics often want to Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. I just said great to your
become your cheerleaders, answer. And this would be a good time to flow back
and the avoidant parts want into the content. I want to reassure everyone we'll
to get you out in the world. have more Q&A and thank you for understanding
It's just a very different way that we have a waiting room so that, Dick, if you're
not only of understanding calling on people you just see on Zoom, which I
understand will happen with the experiential
attachment issues, but also
exercise, but if you can hold off with just questions
helping them change.” that are coming up throughout that really gives
everybody a chance to submit them and then that
can feel more equitable for folks to have an
opportunity. I will be asking questions on the audience’s behalf several more times
throughout today. So, thank you everyone for understanding.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: In other words, if you raise your hand online here, I'm not going to call
on you, so don't bother.

Dr. Schmidt: That's much more straightforward. Unless it's the mindfulness exercise, we can't
get around that. There's only so much room in Zoom space.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I'll let you know when you should raise your hand.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 18
Dr. Schmidt: Okay, thank you.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay, I'm going to quickly run through the steps for doing IFS and then
I'll show some of this video. As I said earlier, the first thing, well, somebody comes into your
office, they're telling you about their problem. Usually, they're talking about their parts that
are dominating their life and causing their problem, but they're not using that language a lot
of the time. But as you're listening, we all learned as therapists to feed back what we're
hearing. You go ahead and you feed it back, but you add the language of parts.

So, Clyde describes the problem, and I'll say, "Oh, I see. So, one part of you does this and then
another part does this in reaction. And you have this battle in your mind about what to do
and that makes this other part of you very upset that you don't know what to do," and "Is that
right?"

People say, "Yeah, that's right." They don't say, "What are you talking about, parts?" which is
why I use the word parts because it's common language. Everybody says, "Part of me wants to
be here, another part wants to go to bed." Hope that's not true for you, it's not true for me.
But everybody uses the word parts. If I said, "One of your subpersonalities does this, another
of your ego states does that," people would say, "What are you talking about?" So, parts isn't
the most descriptive word. It sounds like a machine, but it is the word that's the most user-
friendly. But I'm describing these parts are full range personalities. And so, I'm feeding back to
my client, and I'll say, "There's a way I can help you with these parts if you want. I can help
them change if you're interested. If we were to do that, which one that I just described, would
you like to start with?"

And they pick one. And if it sounds like a protector,

then we'll go ahead. If it sounds like it's an exile, like
“We go with protectors to
"I want to heal this intense pain in my gut," I'll say, honor them for their service,
"We'll get to that. But first I want to see if there's learn about what they
any fear of letting us go to that." We learned the protect, and then get
hard way the importance of working with permission to go to what they
protectors first before we go to exiles. Not even protect so we can heal it.”
expecting them to change, because a lot of them
won't change until what they protect, which is often
the exiles, has changed. So, we go with protectors to honor them for their service, learn about
what they protect, and then get permission to go to what they protect so we can heal it. And
then we come back to the protectors and now they're very flexible. Now they're very open to
change because the system doesn't need their services in the way it did before.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 19
So, we start with a protector and I would say focus on it, find it in your body, around your
body, and you'd be amazed at how readily most people can do that. And then this question,
"How do you feel toward that part of you?", tells you what they're protecting. No, that
doesn't tell you. I'm sorry. That's another question. "How do you feel toward it" tells you how
much self is present relative to the part. And some people will say, "I don't feel toward it, I just
am it." And then we have to do something we call direct access to deal with that, which I can
talk about in a minute. But let's say your client says, "Yeah, I don't like it. I want to get rid of
it."

So that's not one of those C words that wouldn't be Self. I would say, "Okay, I understand why
you want to get rid of it, but let's find the part who wants to get rid of it and just ask it to give
us a little space to relax back so we can get to know it and maybe even help it not have to do
this role anymore." At that point, I'm becoming what I call a hope merchant. I'm saying if you
cooperate and separate for a little while, we might be able to change this part in the way you
want, but not by trying to get rid of it by just helping it.

Many, many times if I can do that with a lot of confidence, the part will separate and I'll say,
"Now how do you feel toward the target part?" And it'll be, "I'm just curious about why it
does this," said in a calm tone with some confidence, facial expression is calm, open tone of
voice. Now I know I've got enough Self, we call the critical mass of Self, to begin to get to
know this target part. So, then I would say,
"Okay, follow your curiosity. Ask it what it wants
you to know about itself." A very non-
“And the part, these protectors
threatening question. Response could be all
love being appreciated, kinds of different things. But then the follow-up
especially the ones that have question, "Ask it what it's afraid would happen if
been hated all their lives, and it didn't do this inside of you?" From that
they soften.” question, you learn about what it's protecting.
"I'm afraid you would be hurt. I'm afraid that
you'd be overwhelmed by these feelings. I'm
afraid you would get enraged with somebody and hurt them."

There's a variety of different common answers to that question. And each of those answers is
telling you what this part's role is in terms of protecting the system. With that information, I
would say, "Okay, that makes sense. How do you feel toward the part now?" And many
people will say, "I appreciate how it's been trying to protect me." "Can you let it know that?
Can you honor it for its job? Show it that you care about it?" And the part, these protectors
love being appreciated, especially the ones that have been hated all their lives, and they
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 20
soften. And often in that conversation I would say, "Ask this part how old it thinks you are?"
And you get a single digit, and I would say, "Let it know how old you are now and how you're
not the age in which it had to take over and do this job. That you can handle a lot more than
you could back then."

And for many of these protectors, that's a big shock. They really thought you were much
younger, and they really needed to protect you this way. But they still aren't going to give up
their job until you've healed what they protect or changed what they protect. So, then we
negotiate permission to go to what they're protecting, which often is in exile, a young,
vulnerable part. That negotiation can take a while.

The video I'm going to show doesn't show a common example of that because this guy Eamon
had done some work before and could get into self pretty quickly, but with some clients,
you're just being that hope merchant for weeks until the protector says, "Okay, now I trust
you can do this." I can go over, I mean I've written about in a couple places, the common
protector fears about letting you go to an exile. Many of them, you can imagine what they
are. There's fear of being overwhelmed by what's in there. There might be secrets in there I
don't want to know about. If I'm vulnerable in your presence, you'll be judging me, and so on.

These are some of the common fears these protectors have. So, over the years we've learned
all the ways to address those fears and then say, "Okay, I promise we're not going to let this
part overwhelm you. What do you think? Now would you let us do it?" And so on and so on.
"I promise I'm not going to be judging. How can I prove that to you?" So on and so on. And
I've gotten very good at being that kind of hope merchant, making a lot of promises and doing
it from Self without a big agenda. If you are in Self, which again, one of the things I value so
much about attachment theory was how much there was a focus on the qualities of the
therapist and the importance of these C word
qualities, basically in being present with your
client. “Your presence is crucial to
getting permission to do many
It's the same in IFS. Your presence is crucial to different things. So, if I can be in
getting permission to do many different things. Self and the protector will feel
So, if I can be in Self and the protector will feel the respect, I have for it and the
the respect, I have for it and the permission I'm permission I'm giving it to not let
giving it to not let us go there if it doesn't want us go there if it doesn't want to,
to, then it's much more likely to open up and let
then it's much more likely to
us do it. And that if I can come with that kind of
open up and let us do it.”
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 21
confidence that I can promise these things, and many of you can't make those promises now
because you haven't seen it happen. So, you have to borrow it from me actually.

So anyway, we do that until the protector says, "Okay, I'll give you a shot, I'll be watching, but
let's see how it goes." I'll say, "Okay, now focus on that pain in there. Find it in your body. How
do you feel toward it?" And sometimes these exiles rush the gate and there's this sudden rush
of emotion. And I'll say, "Okay, if you don't totally overwhelm, things will go a little easier. It's
okay if you have to." But you'd be amazed at how much these young parts can actually control
how much what we call blend, how much they overwhelm.

We'll negotiate the overwhelm so the client can be with this exile rather than become it. And
I'll say, "How do you feel toward it?" "I feel really sad about it. I feel caring about it. I want to
help it." Or "I want to get the hell away from it. It's scary." So, if that's the answer, " Okay,
that's another part, ask it to just give us some space too." I want to be sure that there's
enough Self, a critical mass of Self, before we proceed with this exile. And then ask the exile to
let you see, sense and feel.

First, how's the exile relating to you? Does it

“Your presence is crucial to trust you? And as we were saying earlier, a lot of
getting permission to do many times they don't. So, we do the repair, we do
different things. So, if I can be in what it takes until there is a trusting relationship.
Self and the protector will feel And once that's the case, then ask the exile what
the respect, I have for it and the it wants you to know about what happened
when it got so hurt in the past. You become a
permission I'm giving it to not
compassionate witness to your own history.
let us go there if it doesn't want People will see scenes, sometimes from one
to, then it's much more likely to incident, more commonly from a whole bunch of
open up and let us do it.” incidents. And that's what we call the witnessing
phase of the healing of an exile. These parts are
desperate to be witnessed and most of us have
minimized what happened or tried to not even think about it. So, they'll jump at the chance
to let you really get how bad it was, and we do that until the exile says, "Okay, now you get it
and you get how bad it was." When that's complete, then we move into what we call the
retrieval. So, I would say to you, "I want you now to go into that scene and be with that little
one in the way he or she needed at the time." And I would wait until you said, "Okay, I'm
there." "How are you being with her?" "I'm just standing next to her while he's yelling at her."
"Okay. How is that for her to have you there?" " She's calmer. She likes not being alone with
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 22
this." "Okay, great." And "See if there's anything she needs you to do with her or for her back
there before we take her to a good safe place." "Yeah, she wants me to tell him to stop doing
that, to never do that again." "All right, so go ahead and do that for her, so she can watch you
protect her."

So now I'm starting the process of helping this insecurely attached young part trust Self as a
good attachment figure, who can comfort, who can protect, and so on. So, we do whatever
the part wants in the past until it says it's ready to leave that time and place and come into
the present or come to a fantasy place of its choice. I have the client take that part into that
new place and become that good attachment figure. And then, once the part really trusts that
it never has to go back and that you are going to take care of it now this way, I would say ask it
if it's ready to unload the feelings and beliefs it got from those experiences, which again is the
burdens it got. Ask if it's ready to unburden.
Most parts are totally ready to unburden if they
really trust, they don't have to go back in those “These parts can tell you exactly
scenes, and you are going to take care of them.
what it is and where they carry
it. Ask what it would like to give
Then I would say, ask it where it carries all that,
it all up to, light, water, fire,
in its body or on its body, and you'd be amazed.
These parts can tell you exactly what it is and
wind, earth, anything else. That,
where they carry it. Ask what it would like to we borrowed from Shamanism.”
give it all up to, light, water, fire, wind, earth,
anything else. That, we borrowed from
Shamanism. So the part picks one of those and then tell the part to just let it go into the light.
Let the light take it out. And we do that until the burdens are all gone. How's it feels now? It
feels much lighter. 90% of the time, that's the word you get when a part unburdens, they feel
much lighter. And there's a process by which they can invite qualities in to fill up the space the
burden was taking up. And now, that's a healed exile.

We bring in all the protectors to see they don't have to protect it anymore, including the
original target part and they might now need to unburden, they might even need to be
retrieved themselves. And we do that until the session's over, basically. Then it's onto the
next, what I call, clove of the garlic.

So, in most psychotherapy, the vegetable that's compared to is an onion, where you peel
away the layers and there's this core. IFS it's a bulb of garlic. Garlic has all these separate
cloves. In each clove, there's some exiles and some protectors around some trauma and you
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 23
heal all that, but it doesn't really affect the other cloves. So, then it's onto the next clove of
the garlic. So, that's the process and let me solicit some questions again and then we'll go to
the video.

Dr. Schmidt: Great. Thank you. Lots of questions popping up about this really wonderful step-
by-step process. So, I will read some of them. Rachel U, I just have U for her last name, asks,
"Why do we limit protectors and exiles to single digit ages when traumas can create exiles at
every age?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I'm not doing the limiting, I'm just asking the part how old it thinks the
client is, and they're coming back with the number that came from the part. When I'm
working with a protector, that's usually the age that the protector had to step in and take over
that way, but it isn't really the age of the part.

Dr. Schmidt: Okay, here is another question from Alison Gagner. "What if a client doesn't
continue to check in with the parts throughout their week in between sessions to continue to
cultivate that trust with an exile they've just gone through all of this with?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Really important question, and that was a piece of the process that I
left out. And you'll see me give these instructions to Eamon in the video. The actual session is
great, but if the client doesn't follow up and earn that good attachment figure status by
checking in with the part every day for a while, or with all the parts we've met, and turn that
into a meditation and there are a variety of ways to keep it going. There have been books
written on that. But yeah, the follow- up is really important. In the next session I'm going to
be asking about that. Were you able to stay with this? Because a lot of clients will have a big
session and then some dissociative part makes them forget about the whole thing. Really
good question.

Dr. Schmidt: Great. Pat Mailey is asking, "Does the work of building trust with managers and
exiles result in less demand on the firefighters or is the direct work with those firefighters?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, again, the sequence most of the time, not always, but most of the
time, because we go to firefighters or managers, protectors more generally, without the
intention of them changing, which seems bizarre with some firefighters. They are really
wreaking havoc in the person's life. But we know if we push them to change, they're going to
push back, because they say to themselves, you have no idea what's going to happen if I
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 24
change. So, we have to prove to them that we do get that and that we can change the exile
they protect first and then come back to them and help them change. And I forgot the original
question, but did I answer it?

Dr. Schmidt: I think so. She's asking how much the work between directly with exile calms
down the firefighters and how much we work directly with them is my understanding of the
question?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Giving them a voice helps them calm down a lot. Having them
experience self helps them calm down a lot. But they won't stay that way unless you heal
what they protect. I learned that, when I originally started to do this with parts back in the
'80s, I would do that. I would come to these firefighters, and I would see how much they
would relax, and they temporarily stopped doing what they did just by having my client be
nice to them and listen to them and so on. I thought, "Okay, great, that's all we need to do."
Then we'd come back the next session and they were just as extreme as they were before.
And in asking about that, I learned that they can't stop doing their job until we go to these
other parts that they protect and heal them. And so, we did that. And just to tie this more
back into attachment theory, they would show these exiles, and we would go to these little
kids in there, and again, as a structural family therapist, I thought, "All we had to do was have
my client be nice to these little kids." And they would, and the kid would feel much better. I
thought, "Okay, now we're onto it. Now we're getting there." But we'd come back the next
session and the exile was just as extreme as the time before. And that's how I learned that we
had to get them out of where they're stuck in the past and we had to unburden them before
they can permanently change and heal.

Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. Taryn Lawrence is asking, " Dick, what would you say to a client who
says they don't want to have self be the attachment figure? They want the therapist to be that
secure figure for them?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz: A lot of clients have parts that will say that to you. And so, I would say,
"I totally get that. This part of you doesn't trust self, doesn't know self. I seem like a good guy,
and it makes sense that we'd want that, but let's work with it so it can get to know you as
somebody you could trust," and It would become the target part.

Dr. Schmidt: I am going to ask you one more question that is parts related, and then I'd love
to let you know a direction folks are hoping we go, and I think we're going to be going shortly.
So, the parts question that people seem to keep asking, and so I want to honor a lot of
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 25
different people here, they keep asking about a concern that a client will get overwhelmed. I
did hear you speak to that. It was a lot about working with the protector, getting permission.
But I'm wondering if people need to hear a little more because so many people are saying,
"But what about trauma? What if a person gets dysregulated? How do I pace?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. So again, this is radically different from a lot of trauma models,
because they don't know about self. So many trauma models worry enormously about what's
called the window of tolerance and regulating their clients. And as they see clients becoming
overwhelmed with these raw emotions, they'll stop and ground them and do these exercises,
and so on. You know what I'm talking about? It turns out that self has an enormous window
of tolerance.

If I can access enough self, I don't have to really worry about that whole issue. And I know
there are people in the trauma field badmouthing me for saying this. I'm not going to mention
any names, but I swear to God it's true. So, the
key is to access enough self before you begin
the witnessing process. And if the client says,
“The key is to access enough self "This is too much," either I'll get the part that
before you begin the witnessing thinks it's too much to step out so there's more
process. And if the client says, self, or I might ask the part, the exile itself to
"This is too much," either I'll get not totally overwhelm.
the part that thinks it's too much
to step out so there's more self, They have agency. The only reason they
or I might ask the part, the exile generally try to overwhelm is because their
itself to not totally overwhelm.” experience has been, "If I don't overwhelm, I'm
going to be locked up again. I've got to totally
takeover to be witnessed." If you can convince
them that in not totally taking over, they're more likely to get witnessed, they don't need to
take over. And I have lots of videos to show that process. Does that make sense?

Dr. Schmidt: Yeah, thank you for speaking to that. The place that I see people wanting to
head, and I know you're going to head there, is starting to ask about how all of this collides,
our own internal secure attachment, in our relationships with others. So, people are starting
to ask about what does that look like in IFS couples therapy? I just want to give voice to that. I
know that we're devoting time to it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I think what I'll do is show this video and then we'll talk about that topic
after.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 26
Dr. Schmidt: Great.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: The first thing I want to do is apologize for my appearance in this video.
I usually don't work with people right out of bed, but I did in this case because I'd gotten to
know Eamon pretty well by then. I think we'd had two or three sessions; I knew he wouldn't
judge me for it. Then the second thing is this is Eamon. He is a leader in the psychedelic’s
world. He runs a popular podcast, and I think that's how we met. He had me on his podcast.
And then he asked if I would do a few sessions with him, which I think this is the third of
them. And he'd done a lot of work on himself. So, it isn't like I'm starting with a client who's
fresh or anything. He had done some IFS. But I picked this video, because it does show the
impact of bad parenting on somebody's inner system and how we work with that, how he
becomes that good attachment figure to this part he finds.

The context is he's coming because he had an interaction with someone who worked for him
and his girlfriend. And the girlfriend got very upset with him and criticized him. That set in
motion his protectors. He can describe that
briefly. And then, he picks an exile to want to work
with. He's done enough IFS that he could notice “He's done enough IFS that he
all that happening inside of himself, get it all to could notice all that happening
separate and then figure out what was behind inside of himself, get it all to
it. And he found this exile that you'll see us get to separate and then figure out
know. So, I'm going to start by just having him what was behind it.”
describe some of that.

Eamon (Video): She complimented me on my work, and she was very hurt that I didn't
compliment her work, which I was kind of surprised. Because I was like, I thought you were
supposed to not mention them being celebrities. I thought you were supposed to act like
they're not celebrities. But anyway, she was really hurt about that. And then it derailed the
work that I was doing with the friend, and it just turned into drama out of nowhere.

So, this morning when I was running, there was this voice of like, "Well, this is their fault. This
is her fault and his fault." And it was very like, blame and fault. And I was like, "Okay, so part
of me that is blaming and finding faults, can you step aside for a minute so I can be with the
part of me that's hurt?" while just running.

So, I was like, "Hey, what's going on?" And it's like, "Oh, I fucked up again. I'm in trouble.
People don't like me."
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 27
I wanted to share that with you because I feel like that's one of the core ones for me is
whether it's around my sexuality or it's around my work or whatever, there's a part of me and
it's kind of the same part that was the kid at the soccer field, I did something wrong and now
I'm alone. I'm abandoned because I did something wrong. Now I'm not going to be able to
work with this guy because I said the wrong thing to his girlfriend. And there's this feeling that
this part of me has of like, "I did bad, I'm wrong, I'm bad."

And then, some other parts come in to say, "No, they're bad, they're bad, they're bad." Those
parts are very much looping thinking. And so, I want to move them out of the way so that I
can be with the little boy, because like, "I'm bad. I did wrong." So, I feel like that's a place that
I need to sort of work. Like speed dating IFS work when I notice one of my parts activated and
to be able to go deeper.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So, what he is describing is already something that is one of our goals,
too. It becomes a kind of life practice whereas you go through life, people trigger you and
instead of automatically letting your protectors
respond, you pause, and you notice those
“It becomes a kind of life practice protectors and then you inquire about what
they're protecting. He was doing a great job of
whereas you go through life, that in this interaction with his friend and his
people trigger you and instead of girlfriend. Now, I skipped through some stuff.
automatically letting your We were just talking about psychedelics. So
protectors respond, you pause, yeah, now we're going to do the work.
and you notice those protectors
and then you inquire about what Eamon (Video): So, I looked around at the
they're protecting.” video from last week. One of the things that's
hard for me is when I watch myself, I find it
super embarrassing, and I don't know if that's
a common experience for people, but I feel like I'm faking it or it's not real. I know that that's
a part. But I kind of feel like I want to go to the place. I feel like I'm kind of like there's different
parts and I'm working and there's sexuality stuff that's hard and there's this, but I feel like
there's a place that's right here and I want to go there. And so, maybe we can do that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): You will, but you got to go at the pace your protectors are okay
with.

Eamon (Video): Yeah, that's fair.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 28
Dr. Richard Schwartz: So, you want to work with the shame you're talking about?

Eamon (Video): Okay, let's work with shame.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Are you ready?

Eamon (Video): Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): So, find that feeling in your body, around your body.

Eamon (Video): Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Where do you find it?

Eamon (Video): Just right in the core of my belly, right behind my solar plexus.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): How do you feel toward it?

Eamon (Video): I've really worked on loving, so I do feel a lot of love towards it. I think of the
sensations I get at that part of my body as a kind of gift. I spend a lot of my time wanting to
remove it and make it go away, but now the way I feel towards it is I want to bring love to it
and be tender with it and touch it tenderly and just be tender. It's a physical pain that's pretty
consistent for me and it gets really flared up when I feel like I've done something wrong.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So again, that question, how do you feel toward it? A few sessions ago
he would've had a completely different answer, but he now is more self-led and so he has this
tenderness for it. So, I know it's safe to proceed to get to know it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay, so let's do that. Let's bring some tenderness to it and see
what it wants you to know as you do that.

Eamon (Video): The sense that I got from it this weekend, and I'm getting now, although it's
taking me a little while to really connect, is that it's always going to be tender, and that having
an attitude that I'm going to heal it is actually my desire to get rid of it, and it doesn't want to
be gotten rid of. I feel like it gives me important messages through the pain that I feel there
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 29
like it's trying to help me, and that the essence of it is just a pain, like a tender painfulness.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay, so let it know we're getting that, and we're not going to
try and change it at all. You're just trying to get to know it better.

Eamon (Video): Okay. I feel like it is a version of some of the things we've already talked
about, like the little witch girl, like the meatball that was holding the fat monster. Well maybe
not the fat monster as much, but the witch, that's part of it. I feel like it has a lot of different
faces and aspects. It all kind of comes down to the same thing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Ask it about that. What does it come down to, all that?

Eamon (Video): It just says that I'm wrong and bad.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): And why does it feel the need to say that?

Eamon (Video): Because it learned that it needs to not be wrong and bad. So, he tries to help
me by trying to make sure that I'm not wrong and bad by alerting me to when I'm wrong or
bad.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Does that make sense?

Eamon (Video): Yeah.

“It's just this really, really tender
place that's kind of like an alarm.
It's like a wound, and it's not Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): So let it know you
holding. It's not part of me trying get it's trying to protect you that way.
to control myself. It's more just like
an alarm to let me know if I've Eamon (Video): It feels like when I talked about
done something wrong.” the meatball, the meatball was a holding, and this
is actually deeper than the holding. It's not a
holding. It's just this really, really tender place
that's kind of like an alarm. It's like a wound, and it's not holding. It's not part of me trying to
control myself. It's more just like an alarm to let me know if I've done something wrong.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Let it know we're getting that.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 30
Eamon (Video): It likes when I kind of massage it like this.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's great. Is it wanting you to listen to it more or what does
it need from you?

Eamon (Video): Oh, that's kind of surprising from what it said earlier, but it says it does want
to heal.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay, so we can do that. So, see if it wants to show you where it
got these beliefs about itself in the past.

Eamon (Video): My dad poking me. My dad poking me in the chest like that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So, we're beginning the witnessing process, asking what it wants to
show you about what happened in the past.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Literally doing that?

Eamon (Video): Yeah, literally poking me in the chest and making scary faces.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): So, tell him to really let you get how scary that was and how
bad it made him feel as much as he wants you to feel and see and sense it all.

Eamon (Video): I can feel him flinching and trying to make himself small so that he doesn't
make my dad angry. And I feel like he's a place in my body that could become a black hole
that my whole body could hide in so it wouldn't be in the way. It's a scared part, but it's less
scared in that it's not cerebrally scared. It's like flinching scared. It's like an animal scared and
very on edge, very worried.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): So just stay with it.

Eamon (Video): I can feel my heartbeat in it right now. I can feel my heartbeat through this
point. And I feel like it's communicating with me less verbally and less narratively and more
somatically. It's about sensation and physical, not about ideas. And it's not saying, "Oh, my
daddy didn't like me." It kind of is saying that, but not with words. It's more like, " How do I
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 31
get away from him? How do I get small, so he doesn't notice me?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yeah. Just stay with it until he feels like you really got how bad
all that was for him.

Eamon (Video): I think that he's so conditioned to not want to be in the way that he sort of
doesn't want to burden me with his pain and loneliness, but I'm telling him that I want him to
share that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Perfect. That's what I was going to ask is what do you want to
say to him about it?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: You can see when you have

this much self, he knows what to say. He knows “You can see when you have
what to do relative... My job is minimal. I'm just this much self, he knows what
trying to stay present with him as he takes over. to say. He knows what to do
relative... My job is minimal.
Eamon (Video): Well, I tell him it's not fair, it wasn't I'm just trying to stay present
right, and he was really scared and lonely. And I with him as he takes over.”
know all of this, but what's new for me is the
flinching, the kind of reactive, trying to be small
and trying to pull away and be hidden. And then, how that led to being so alone, the
loneliness of trying to be small. Because what he wants is to dance and play and sing and
roughhouse and be rowdy. But he is very afraid to do that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Let him know, we're going to him up, get him out of there. Ask
him if does feel like you're getting everything now.

Eamon (Video): He says that what I'm not getting is how heavy the air was, even when dad
wasn't there, and how the whole house was heavy and thick. The air in the house was thick
and heavy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Can you get that?

Eamon (Video): Yeah.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 32

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Let him know you get that piece, too, and how oppressive that
was.

Eamon (Video): And his mom didn't help him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): She just was looking out for herself?

Eamon (Video): She just couldn't. She just didn't know what to do. But the whole house is
heavy, and it's hard to just grow.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): And there wasn't any relief from it, it sounds like?

Eamon (Video): Yeah, it was always... Even when dad was gone, there was the fear of him that
was always there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's right.

Eamon (Video): And the fear of him poking or grabbing or being scary, like coming in with his
face, with his hand or on the arm like that. And also just feeling like he just hated me. He was
just so angry at me, and me especially, not my brother. And the stuff that bugged him the
most was stuff that my body wanted to do. My body wanted to dance. My body wanted to
jump and sing and yell. And I think that part of the heaviness in the house is not being able to
express my body, like the energy in my body, not getting to move, having to hold. Yeah, there's
little boy energy, like roughhouse energy, like play energy that got kind of shouted down and
shouted into being quiet. And then, an just exuberant little boy just always trying to be quiet,
always trying to not get in the way, and then not being able to and getting in trouble. Oh,
yeah, and the feeling of being in trouble. He hates to be in trouble. He just wants to not be in
trouble.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's right.

Eamon (Video): That's what it is. More than anything, he's just trying so hard not to be in
trouble. It's unpredictable, too.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yeah. You can never know when you're going to be in trouble.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 33
Eamon (Video): And then, just this feeling that what was natural for him was wrong. For Ian, it
was natural for him to be quiet. He was naturally the way that was good. But my way was bad,
to sing and shout and jump. That was bad. So trying to control my body. I can really feel it in
my actual, in this point, in my stomach.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): It's really great.

Eamon (Video): I really feel it. And I'm massaging it, lovingly massaging and just saying, "Your
body's good." It's interesting. It doesn't make me want to cry. It doesn't even feel emotional
really. It feels so physical.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): And ask if he does feel like you get everything now.

Eamon (Video): So, there's one more thing. His belly hurts all the time.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Hmm, had a worry?

Eamon (Video): Well, I had colic when I was really, really little and I yelled a lot, I screamed for
the first nine months of my life because I had really bad colic. And I think that there's
something, a part of why stuff goes to the belly... like the belly a place of pain I feel like. I think
it's all just really the essence of it is just like this really, really deep sense that the core of me is
bad. And that the best I could ever do is pretend to be good.

If I can pretend to be good, then I can feel what it's like to be loved, but you can never feel
love when you're pretending. When I press in deeply right in the middle, I don't trust myself
right there. In that really deep place, I don't trust myself because I feel like I'm bad.

I feel like a lot of the things that come out in my sexuality and in my life are just like, there's
this idea of just badness right in the middle.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: That's right. So, we're right with the exile now, it carries this
worthlessness, this sense that I'm bad at the core and then that is organizing a lot of the
protectors. The ones who, if I can just be good enough, I'll get love. We haven't met all the
protectors but you're getting a sense of the internal working model of those protectors.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 34
Eamon (Video): I try to prove that I'm not bad all the time. I think that's the fuel of all this
personal growth and healing is just like I have to change. But the middle part of me always
feels, yeah, it just feels bad. Not evil, it's not evil, and it's not independent of him really. It's
like he's the one who decides what's bad and good and then later school kids became who
decided what's bad and good. And I was bad. And then it's like girls in society, but it started
with him, he was the one who decided who was bad and good and he decided that my
brother was good, and I was bad.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): So see if he feels like you get it now.

Eamon (Video): Do you feel like I get it now? He says that he knows that I understand it, but
that he doesn't know how I could possibly feel it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Does he need you to feel it or does he just need you to
understand it?

Eamon (Video): He doesn't want either of us to feel it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): There's no need to feel it if he doesn't need that.

Eamon (Video): Yeah. Well, he says that I do feel it because he feels it and I feel him, and that
I didn't feel him for many years and that it's really good that I do feel him now.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yeah. Okay then, so I'd like you to go to him in that time period
and be with him in the way he needed somebody and just tell me when you're in there with
him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: We finished the witnessing and now we're doing the retrieval.

Eamon (Video): I'm with him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): How are you being with him?

Eamon (Video): I'm coddling him.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 35
Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): How is he reacting?

Eamon (Video): He likes it and I'm stroking his chest and his belly.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Great.

Eamon (Video): I'm telling him that he's good. And that he's not doing anything wrong, and
that little boys are supposed to be wild.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's right. Right, exactly. It's beautiful. It's really great you can
tell him that and he can hear you.

Eamon (Video): Little boys are supposed to be wild. It's not just that you're not bad, you're
good. You're supposed to jump and play and yell. That's what you're supposed do. Everything
that you're doing is right and it's good and you can trust yourself.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Really beautiful, just keep going.

Eamon (Video): That's what it is, is you can trust yourself that what your body does, what it
wants, what comes out of it is good you don't have to hold it and control it. It's okay to be
rowdy. It's okay to rough house. It's okay to fight. It's okay to hurt yourself. You don't have to
be afraid and hold it all.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Can he believe you?

Eamon (Video): Yeah, that's why I'm crying.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's great.

Eamon (Video): I mean this is really it. It's not about one thing that happened or one kind of
hurt that was done. It was the constant message that you can't trust yourself, that your body
is doing the wrong thing and you have to control yourself then do something different. That's
the wound. It's not even the poking or the yelling or the scary stuff. It's the way that they
programmed me to not trust myself. That's why I'm so confused about sexuality and about
what my body wants.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 36
And then I get anxious, and when something happens that's not okay, instead of saying, "No,
that's not okay," I immediately, without even thinking about it, I go into holding and this
anxious feeling happens because what my body wants to do is say, "No, that's not okay. I don't
allow that." But instead, I immediately go like hold and then figure out the right way to say it
so you're nice and not bad.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's right.

Eamon (Video): So, when Leo's stupid girlfriend got on the phone and was acting all awkward
and weird and then Leo acted like it was my fault, I should have said, "No, you're fucking
working for me and your girlfriend shouldn't have gotten on the phone and what you're doing
is wrong, and I don't feel comfortable with this and I'm not happy."

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yeah, it's all tied together. But are you still back there with him
in that time?

Eamon (Video): Yes.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay and see if there's anything he wants you to do for him
back there before we take him to a good place.

Eamon (Video): He doesn't want me to leave. He hates being left alone in his bed. And he
likes it when people sing to him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's great. Go ahead and do that if he wants.

Eamon (Video): The nicest that my dad was to me when I was a little boy, this thing that was
the nicest thing, was when he'd sing to me at night. Sometimes he would sing Speed Bonnie
Boat to me and it always made me feel special because the words are, "Speed, bonnie boat,
like a bird on the wing, over the sea to Skye. Carry the lad who was born to be king." And it
always made me feel like made I would be a king when I was a prince. So I'm singing, petting
his hair and he’s happy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Just to point out, that without any cueing from me, his self knows how
to be a good attachment figure, just automatically knows how to do it. And also, I didn't have
to worry about all the emotion or the overwhelm or any of that because so much self was
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 37
there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): And you can see if he needs you to do anything with the father
or if that's not important at this point.

Eamon (Video): I don't think it's important.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay. Just be sure he says that. Just check with him.

Eamon (Video): Oh, no wait, I was wrong. He wants me to tell him he's wrong. He wants me
to go to dad and say, "Eamon isn't wrong, you're wrong. You can't drink anymore and you
can't be mean because that's wrong." He wants me to tell both of my parents that I have to
let him be and let him be free and that if I'm too loud then I'll go outside. Okay, he likes that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Good. Anything else or is he ready to leave with you now?

Eamon (Video): He trusts me. So, he's ready to go.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Good. All right, so let's take him anywhere he'd like to go. It
could be a fantasy place. It could be with you in the present. Whatever he wants.

Eamon (Video): He is very clear on wanting to be with me. He wants to be in my heart on a

swing.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Perfect. Go ahead and set that up.

Eamon (Video): Okay. So, he's in my heart but it's also like an adventure place so he can run
around and climb on trees and yell a lot and dance and get angry if he wants to. And just like
it's a place where he can do whatever he wants.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Let him know you're going to stay with him and keep him in
there and he never has to go back. And see if with that, if he's ready to unload the feelings
and beliefs he got back there.

Eamon (Video): I had a weird little bit of a protector from up top who just interfered for a
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 38
minute. That's a little strange. Shame Wizard just was like, "Hey, he's not ready to unburden."
That's not him, that's just Shame Wizard.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Tell the Shame Wizard we're going to leave that to him, it's not
Shame Wizard's business.

Eamon (Video): Shame Wizard is now ashamed.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Well, he can unburden too. He can throw his shame out too.

Eamon (Video): Yeah, why don't you unburden your shame with it? Okay, now that's good
actually. Okay, you can come and we're going to unburden together. You can unburden the
shame. You can unburden the sexual shame while little Eamon unburdens his feeling that he's
wrong. And it's a fire, it's a campfire.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's great.

Eamon (Video): It's like a sing-along campfire. It's not like a dramatic unburdening, it's like
singing and throwing things in the fire and actually my little boy wants all of the parts to
come.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Good, good.

Eamon (Video): And so, all the parts are sitting around the campfire. My parts always just
want to like sing and dance, it's always singing and dancing. And the little blue guy who never
stops dancing, hanging out, and the little girl witch is there, although she's not a witch
anymore, and that's my girl self. My girl self and my boy self are little best friends. And they're
all just letting it go and putting it in the fire and roasting marshmallows.

The big belief is that I'm not good. That's the big belief that needs to go in the fire. That I'm
not good, because it's not true, I'm really good. I'm a very special, good, loving kind person
and I don't have to prove it, I just am it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's right. All that's true.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 39
Eamon (Video): Oh, he's happy, he's like all cute. Oh, he wants dad and mom to come to the
fire now too. He wants grownup dad, because my dad and I are friends now, he wants my old
man dad to come.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay, good.

Eamon (Video): Okay, I'm having a whole moment. So, he's got old man dad, which is dad
today, who's very sweet, and he's telling him that he forgives him and he's holding onto his
arm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's really great.

Eamon (Video): That's really sweet, and he wants my brothers there now, okay, now he wants
everyone in the world there. That's getting a bit crowded. And he wants all the people that
he's felt blame towards, to be at the fire so that they can unburden too and so he can forgive
all of them.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Fantastic.

Eamon (Video): He's really going with all of this. Okay, so now he's trotting around the fire
and he's like a military commander and he's telling people that they can unburden their
problems and he's like, "You, it's okay, just unburden your problems." And he's really taking a
big leadership role. Oh, that's so cute. Oh, he is really good. He really wants to share, he
wants to share with everybody.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's really neat.

Eamon (Video): Yeah, that's so sweet. Nice job little me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): If he wants to, he can invite qualities into his body, whatever
he'd like, and just see what comes in.

Eamon (Video): He wants to be free. He just wants to be free. He just wants to be free and
jump. That's really, he wants to be brave. I mean he wants to be a bunch of things that I think
he already is. He's like, "I want to be brave, and I want to be smart and I want to be free," and
he wants to be able to jump really high, so that's a quality that he is asking for. He's like, "I
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 40
want to be able to jump really high so I can jump up into a tree." Okay, you can have that
quality. Actually, really, it's like the playground is like yours so you can jump as high as you
want because it's your own place now. He really wants to jump very high on something and
he wants everyone to know how high he can jump. I take it back not thinking that this stuff
works or it's not real. It's really interestingly real.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yeah.

Eamon (Video): He's got little like rubber galoshes and he's just jumping a lot, jumping in
puddles, and he's at summer camp. Yeah, the whole place has kind of the tone of a summer
camp, like a fire where everybody's unburdening themselves and he's forgiving everyone and
he giving everyone s'mores and stuff and everyone's paying attention to him and his dance
moves and he's really happy and he's really free.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): It's all good. So, does that feel complete then?

Eamon (Video): I think so. Yeah, he's happy. He says that he'll talk to me about things when
we run together. He says that if there's other stuff, he says that he's good now and if there's
other stuff that we can talk about it when we go on our run together.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay, perfect.

Eamon (Video): He really likes running. He likes physical body stuff, he wants to run. He wants
us to run together.

And just check with all the others and see if there's anything they want you to know before
we come back.

Eamon (Video): Shame Wizard is just like I still want to be a Shame Wizard.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Why is that? Why does he want to?

Eamon (Video): Well, he's being very theatrical. I think he's joking. He's like, "Because that's
just what I am." I don't know. I think he just wants attention too. He's like a cartoon Shame
Wizard. So, I think everybody's good. The big thing for the parts is that they like dancing and
they like having dance battles with each other, that's kind of how they sort of all... like a lot of
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 41
like big feet kicking into the air to do groovy dance moves.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Okay. All right, so come on out when you're ready.

Eamon (Video): Hi, I wasn't even facing towards you. I was facing over here. That went well.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That was quite amazing indeed. Yeah. How do you feel?

Eamon (Video): I feel really good, and I feel really good with the way things unfolded because
I felt like I would need to go to some kind of really dramatic dark place in order for it to work,
but that's not actually what it is. It's not really, because I've spent a lot of time crying about
my dad and I've done lots of therapy, and that's not really what it is. It's the feeling that I was
wrong and holding that in my belly and then how that creates all of these other ways I
interact with the world.

It was really interesting with the unburdening thing because as you probably noticed, as he
was unburdening he just got bigger and bigger and he was telling people what to do and he
was inviting everybody in. It's interesting because my Bufo shaman from this weekend was
basically like, "The two things that I saw in you that seemed like your refuge and your power is
humor and service. Those are the two things that are really big for you." That's how I felt with
my little boy, he was just being really funny and really playful, but then including everyone
and being like, "I want you to unburden. I want you to..." He was like really into sharing but
also really into attention and being funny and having everyone laugh and him, and I feel like
that's me. I feel like that's what I really want, is I want to help everyone, and I want everybody
to like me. But I want them to like me, I don't want them to something I'm pretending.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yeah, so it's a big shift to feel like you are really this badness in
there to you are this guy.

Eamon (Video): Yeah. Yeah, that's nice. This was good.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Yes it was.

Eamon (Video): So how do I integrate this? Is it the kind of thing where this happens and then
I'm just good now?
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 42
Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): No, it takes some maintenance. So, you need every day as a
meditation to just join your parts and see how they're doing and if they need anything and
keep it going. They need to know that you don't
forget them and that you take them seriously. I
get you do a lot when you're running so that “You need every day as a
might be the best time. But that's all though, you meditation to just join your
don't need to do a whole lot more than that. parts and see how they're
doing and if they need
Eamon (Video): Well, I think that running in the anything and keep it going.”
morning is good. I think that when my head spins
about when I start blaming someone, that's a
really good time to come in and be like why am I blaming someone else if I know that I'm
good? If I know that I'm good, I don't have to blame anyone else. I only have to blame
someone else if I think they say I'm bad then I have to say, "No, you're bad." I think that's an
access point for me, is if I feel like I'm blaming someone else then that means that I'm really in
self-blame.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): That's what we call a trailhead. It's a head of a trail that if you
follow the trail it'll take you to a key part. And given the size of this piece we did, it's likely you
won't be doing that nearly as much. But when it happens, that's what you do.

Eamon (Video): And you want to get off in like a minute, right, so you have a break before
your next thing?

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): No, I'm fine.

Eamon (Video): Okay. Little boys should be wild is so fucking big for me, that was the breaking
point of the whole thing. And I had no idea that would make me cry. Because it's true, little
boys should be wild, little boys are wild. Little girls are wild too. Little beings are wild, and
they should be wild. They should be permitted to be wild and made safe in their wildness.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Exactly.

Eamon (Video): Not smothered, not pushed down. And the idea that my little-boy self
deserves to be wild and that I'm the right kind of parent for that child because I can make him
safe. Okay, you can be wild. You can't go punch that person, but you can take the energy of
punching and we can go do something fun with it. To be a wise steward of the wildness of my
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 43

inner child I think is a really key takeaway.

Dr. Richard Schwartz (Video): Totally agree, yeah. That's what I mean by maintaining what
you got today.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay, I think that's enough. That's Eamon. And as you can see, he put it
very well, he can be a really good parent to this wild child in a way that his father wasn't. So,
this is what IFS does, it helps parts attach to self. You heard a lot about how now the parts
trust him whereas they didn't before and it helps them get to know each other. So, you saw
three of those four goals happen, parts transforming, trusting self more, and then
harmonizing with each other. So, I think, Megan, we should maybe take a few questions and
reactions and then we'll do another piece.

Dr. Schmidt: Yeah, sounds great. And just as a reminder in this last bit of time we have
together, if you can shift us into how doing this work, we got to see that kind of whole flow
with Eamon, helps us have more insight about our relational patterns with others when we
are able to be that secure attachment for our parts, what ends up transforming in
relationships with others? I think there's an eagerness to hear that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Let's say Eamon's in an intimate relationship and he is got this exile that
feels so much like it's pure badness, and it also wants to dance and play and all that, that's
going to play out in that relationship. So, he may have hooked up with the person with the
hope that this person is going to take away that badness and do that by telling him he's so
good. And most of us come out of our families with some version of that. Actually, part of why
I like this video so much is I really identify with him. My father was very similar that way and I
came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness. And my first wife, her job, she was to be
the redeemer, she was to make sure I never felt that again by letting me know how great I am.
That's not the best way to set up a relationship.

And so yeah, when you have that kind of, I guess, insecure attachment, you're going to want
your partner to fix that for you. Does that make sense? And you're also going to get very
upset if they ever do what your father did, which is to constrain the wildness and all that. So,
we all come out of our relationships with that kind of quote, unquote, "attachment pattern".
But mainly it's just exiles that carry these burdens and then the protectors that go to work.
And also, if his partner ever says that he's not good for some reason or is critical of him, you
heard about the protectors that are going to come to his defense and have to say, "No, you're
bad. It's not me." Another quality that's not ideal in a relationship. So, we all have some
version of that. We all have an exile who's craving to be given a different message than we got
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 44
in our family about ourselves. And we're all putting that on our partner basically to be the one
to make us feel better that way, to be that
redeemer.
“We all have an exile who's craving
to be given a different message
That's a big load for a partner to carry and most than we got in our family about
partners can't do that all the time. They feel the
ourselves. And we're all
pressure and they get critical. And when that
happens it's a big explosion inside because it turns putting that on our partner
out this partner wasn't the right one, that one's basically to be the one to
still out there, the one that's going to make me make us feel better that way,
feel good all the time. So your protectors go into to be that redeemer.”
what I call one of three or four projects. Either
they try to coax or coerce the partner back into
being who they're supposed to be, which is the one that makes you feel good, like you're not
bad, or they try to change yourself. They try to get you to change and stop doing the things
that bother your partner. Remember he had that other protector that tried to make him
acceptable and tried to be the good boy, and worked hard to please everybody and wouldn't
let his angry part speak to his partner, the guy he works with.

And particularly when it keeps going and your partner isn't doing it the way they're supposed
to, then you start thinking, "Well, this wasn't the right partner. The real redeemer is still out
there somewhere." And you get rid of this partner, and you go looking for that real one and
then you repeat the pattern over and over again because you haven't healed the parts that
create the attachment pattern that produces the same result. Or you give up on getting it
from a human being and you go to work all the time, or you go to drugs and alcohol, or you go
somewhere that allows you to not have to take a risk with a human being and get hurt again,
if you get hurt enough times.

So, most of us are in some version of that with our partners because we don't know how to
do what he just did, which is to become the primary caretaker for our exiles, which then frees
up our partner to be the secondary caretaker of our exiles. And most of us have that reversed.
We want our partner to take care of our exiles because we don't know what the hell to do
with our exiles, and mainly we just try to stay away from them. So let me just see if that all
makes sense to people.

Dr. Schmidt: Great. I'm going to ask you a question while I wait for some questions to roll in
about the piece you just did. What might you say to those of us who are individual
therapists... and so we're tasked with attuning to and being present with our client's
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 45

narrative... but they're often telling a story about their partner, and it could very well be their
parts that are activated?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, if you're an individual therapist, so you're not with a partner, but
for IFS, it's pretty simple. If I suspected that was true, I would say, "Megan, could you focus on
the part that's saying this about your partner and could you find it in your body? And let's just
get to know it a little bit. Could you get curious about it, and ask why it's so focused on your
partner changing and what's afraid would happen if it didn't do that?"

What I'm saying is most everything that's not one of those C-words is coming from a part, and
you don't have to confront the person and say, "I think you're projecting on your partner," or
anything. You can just say, "Let's just get curious about the one who's doing the talking and
see what it's about, see if it's protecting something."

Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. That's helpful. Anne, I'm going to ask a question from Anne, and I
believe her last name is Cerny. I think there's a lot of confusion about attachment, attachment
theory, and the secure attachment that self can provide to parts. She's asking, "So are
securely attached people experiencing more self?"

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah. I mean, when you

“When you get good parenting get good parenting and you don't have a lot of
and you don't have a lot of attachment wounds from your past, from your
attachment wounds from your parents, then you don't have a lot of protectors,
past, from your parents, then you don't have a lot of exiles, and you have a lot
you don't have a lot of more access to self in general. So that's secure
protectors, you don't have a lot attachment is you're more self-led.
of exiles, and you have a lot
more access to self in general. Now, most of us didn't have that, and most of
my clients didn't have that, but the people who
So that's secure attachment is
had that don't generally need to come to
you're more self-led.” therapy. So yeah, so I don't know a lot of them.

Dr. Schmidt: I'm still noticing a lot of people perhaps needing something to be repeated or
expanded upon about attachment styles because I clearly heard you say they are the activity,
what we're calling attachment styles, avoidant, anxious, disorganized, that's the behavior of
parts that are protecting something. People are struggling to understand that.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 46
Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, okay, if you're struggling to understand it, tell me why. What's
complicated about it? Because yes, each of those styles is just a fairly accurate description of
the part that dominates this person because of what happened to them. The attachment
theory is saying that people don't just have one attachment style, that with one person,
you're going to be avoidant, and another person, you're going to be anxious and so on. And
for me, that's just two different protectors that relate to two different people in different
ways.

So, I don't know what's complicated about it, and I don't know how to address their concerns.

Dr. Schmidt: I think hopefully you repeating that is helpful and I wonder if it's just our heads
are so full of, these days, so many ideas and definitions about attachment, attachment theory.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I think there's something to that. What most people find when they
come to our trainings is they have to really let go of many things they've learned elsewhere,
that you have to come in that beginner's mind the Buddhists talk about because otherwise,
you're going to constantly hear from your parts that learn something else and this contradicts
and you won't really learn it.

Dr. Schmidt: I'll leave you with this thought, Dick, and then turn it over to you. One of the
pieces you were going to hit on today was practical strategies, and we just saw many of them
through this process, of helping clients with integration and how it's going to strengthen their
external relationships, how doing this work is going to help them function in their external
intimate relationships.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: That's the question?

Dr. Schmidt: That was just a place, one of the learning objectives that you were going to take
us to in this last little bit.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Oh okay. Well, I hope we've addressed some of that already, but just
the short answer is if you don't have all these protectors protecting all these very, very
vulnerable exiles, relationships are a lot easier. If they trust self to handle relationships rather
than feel like they've got to take over and scare away the person that's getting too close, or
make you so obsequious that they stick around, or all the things Eamon talked about, then
you'll have much more of what we call a self-to-self relationship, or at least you can be in self
even with your partner's parts.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 47

The way most couples come in is it's parts wars. My part takes over, that triggers your part.
That gets contagious. They just escalate over time
and then you feel like you've got to get away or... And
“The way most couples so, when people come in like that, I'm saying, "Okay,
come in is it's parts wars. time out. I want each of you to do what we call a U-
turn, that is to focus inside, notice the parts that are
My part takes over, that
coming up in relation to your partner," just like
triggers your part. That gets Eamon did. He noticed that blaming part and got
contagious. They just curious about what was behind it. Do you remember
escalate over time and then that, in the moment with his business partner?
you feel like you've got to
get away.” So, just notice the parts that are coming up to protect
you, get curious about them, get to know them a
little bit, and then if it's safe enough, and ideally, get
to know the parts they're protecting, and then come back when you can speak what we call
for them rather than from them. And by that, I mean instead of a part of me taking over and
saying, "Megan, why did you say that? Why did you ask me that question?" I might say, "I
noticed, Megan, when you asked me that question, there was a part of me that had this
impulse to be critical of you, and then I stayed with that and I noticed that there's something
about the question, because I didn't know the answer, that made me a little insecure. So, I
just want to know that the question bothered me, but it's not a bad question." It's a very
different way of talking. You follow me?

So, you do the U-turn, you listen inside, you come back when you can speak for your parts,
you speak for your parts to your partner. Ideally, they come back in self-speaking for their
parts, and you have a totally different session, and all you have to do as a therapist is blow the
whistle, become the ref, and say, "Time out. Both of you go into your corners, find some stuff
out, come back when you can speak from those C-words rather than from this other place."

Dr. Schmidt: Thank you. I think that is going to be really helpful to people. I have a very
persistent animal here. Dick, where would you like to take us in this last little bit of time
together? I know you had an experiential exercise you were considering.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, why don't we do that? Yeah, I'll do a brief version of it and then
we'll have some time for people to give some reports about it.

Dr. Schmidt: Great.

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 48
Dr. Richard Schwartz: And again, this is totally voluntary. You might not be up for it at all,
which is fine. You can just think about lunch or something. But as you've been watching my
presentation and watching Eamon, I suspect you've been noticing some of your parts and I
want to give you a chance to get to know one and to make it a protector in this context. We
want to work with protectors. I'm not sure why everybody's raising their hand. Is there a
reason?

Dr. Schmidt: I think that, Dick, we mentioned early in the intro that this may be a time that
you do call on people directly to share their experiences after, after.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Oh, after. After the exercise, yeah.

Dr. Schmidt: Yeah, I think that might be where the confusion lies.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: So, think of one of your protectors, maybe in a relationship you're in or
not. Yeah. Without raising your hand online, but just raise your physical hand if you have a
protector in mind you want to get to know better.

Okay, some of you do and some of you aren't there yet. And if you can't think of one, most all
of us have a critic, so you can use that one. Let me try it again. How many of you have a
protector in mind? I think we're going to go ahead. All right. Yeah, you can put your hands
down.

Focus on it and find it in your body or around your body and notice how you feel toward this
part of you. In other words, do you not like it? You want to get rid of it? Are you afraid of it?
Do you depend on it? You have a relationship with this protector, so I'm just asking you to take
a look at that and notice how you feel toward it.

If you do feel any of the things that I mentioned, then “We're not going to give it
ask those parts, just for a few minutes here, if they're more power by listening to
willing to open space inside so you can just get to it. We're not going to have it
know this protector a little bit. We're not going to
take over or do anything
give it more power by listening to it. We're not going
to have it take over or do anything bad. We're just
bad. We're just going to get
going to get to know it and maybe even help it trust to know it and maybe even
you more. So just see if any other parts can give you help it trust you more.”
the space to at least get curious about the original
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 49

target part, the protector.

If you can't get to a curious place about it, then don't take the next steps I'm going to offer.
And instead, you can get to know these parts that won't let you go there, but if you can open
your mind to it, then go ahead and ask what it wants you to know about itself and just direct
that question to that place in your body and don't think of the answer, just wait and see what
comes. A very non-threatening, open-ended question. What does it want you to know?

Then the follow-up question, what's it afraid would happen if it didn't do this thing that it
does inside of you? What's it afraid would happen? And it may not have answered that, but if
it did, then you learned about how it's trying to protect you or protect another part of you or
protect you from another part. If you did learn that, then see if you can extend appreciation
to it for at least trying to protect you this way, even if it backfires, and see how it reacts to
your appreciation. Ask it now, if you could heal or change what it's protecting in there, so this
job wasn't so necessary and was freed up, what might it like to do instead inside of you? I'll
repeat that one. If you could heal or change what it's protecting so it was liberated from this
role, what might it like to do instead?

And while you're at it, ask this part how old it thinks you are. Again, don't think, just wait and
see what comes. If it got your age wrong, then go ahead and tell it how old you are and see
how it reacts. Then the last question for it is, what does it need from you to trust you to
handle things more? Maybe to handle your relationships. What does it need from you in the
future? Then whenever it feels complete, then go ahead and thank your part for whatever it
shared. Let it know this won't be the last time you talk to it, it's the beginning of a new
relationship with it, and begin to shift your focus back outside, and take some deep breaths if
it helps.

Megan, I'd love to hear some direct reports now about what that experience was like. We've
got 15 minutes, I think.

Dr. Schmidt: Great. Would you like people to submit those in the chat or you're wanting to
call on them?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: I'll call on people.

Dr. Schmidt: I think that's a great idea, yeah. Just real quickly, folks, the NICABM tech team, if
Dick can read off your name, they'll send you a pop-up box and you can unmute yourself.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 50
Jennifer: I can go ahead.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Go ahead.

Jennifer: Oh, thank you. Wow. I think I've done so much thinking about all this but not gone
to the body. The part was this part of me that tells me to slow down and give up on pursuing
my big ideas and stay small, so definitely a protector. It was in my throat, which really
surprised me. My first emotion about it was that I was really sad. It wanted me to know that I
was going to get hurt, like crushed and rejected.

When I thank it, it was really interesting. It was really grateful that I didn't see it as weak.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: It was grateful for what?

Jennifer: It was grateful that I didn't see it as weak. Well, I don't want to think. I'll stay in my
body, but it was like I think it's been beaten up by other parts. And when I asked it if I could
heal or change it, what I was protecting, what would it like to do, it said it wanted to create
comfort and joy.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Beautiful.

Jennifer: When I asked it how old I was, it said I was three. And when I told it I was 53, I was
53, the look on its face was so puzzled and I actually found myself leaning. I just had a hip
replaced, so I'm reclined here, but I leaned over and scratched my head, like an emoji, like
puzzled emoji. And when I asked it what it needed from me to trust me, it was profound. It
said, "I need to know that you will, that you'll allow yourself rest, joy, and comfort while
you're going after the big dreams, that you won't just push so hard that you'll burn me out
and kill me."

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Right, yeah.

Jennifer: It was amazing. I can't believe all that happened in the span of, what was that, about
five minutes?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: It was a little more than five minutes, but not many. Yeah, that's great.
What's your name?
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 51

Jennifer: It's Jennifer. Yes, Jen, yep.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Okay. Thank you, Jennifer, for sharing all that. It's really great.

Jennifer: Thank you.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Alex, Alex Bishop?

Alex: Yes. Hey, Dick. How's it going?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Good.

Alex: Good, good. Thanks. I tapped into some parts that I've been working with for the past
year now. I have a strong set of about eight dissociative pairs that work in tandem, and I took
the time to continue getting to know them. It's been a year, so it's been quite a journey. I've
been doing IFS for probably six years in total, but I've just uncovered that there's all of this
dissociation happening.

You know, I asked them what their fears are. They said that the pain would destroy me. I
asked what they would rather do. They say, "Actually be more expansive versus dissociative
and contracted." I said, "What do you need from me in order to know that or in order to
facilitate help?" And they said, "We need more time." And I've got another part that's like,
"How fucking long is this going to take? We've been doing this forever now."

But it's interesting. When you said the piece around, "I promise that I'm not going to let this
overwhelm you, and that the confidence that you put forth, I can really prove that to you,"
something inside went, "We need that." Because my therapist is good, but she doesn't lean in
with the, "We can do this." It's more of letting me, you know?

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Well, tell her she needs to do that.

Alex: Okay, I'll do that then. Yeah. Thanks.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Thank you, Alex. That's great. Ranana?

IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 52
Ranana: Hello. So, I met with a protector who I think came up in part because you were
talking about couples earlier. And this was a very defensive, sarcastic protector that I
identified as a litigator, which is interesting because my husband is a litigator.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Well, then you need one. Yeah.

Ranana: Yeah, right, right. It really felt a very adult. It showed up as an adult marching around
or really moving her hands and reminded me of my mom in energy who just could get really
agitated and a little bit scary.

So, when you asked how I felt about her, I was surprised that I was worried about her and I
was concerned. Here she is. She's worked up and she's defending herself. She says, "Don't
interrupt me, just let me talk." In my family of origin, there's a lot of interruption. I interrupt a
lot, my husband interrupts a lot, so she does not like to be interrupted. She wants to clarify
the record. "I didn't say that. I did tell you that. I do not want to be told that I'm wrong or be
verbally overpowered." And she's really tired of not being understood or being criticized and
she's very sensitive, so she's this strong character but very sensitive.

When you asked what she was afraid of happening if she didn't behave this way, it was
instantaneous, "Depression. You're going to feel so sad and so alone. You will feel abandoned
if you don't defend your ability to speak in your space." And she really doesn't want to feel
alone and feel ignored.

And when you said, "What would she want to do instead?" it was just, again, it was instant.
Just like, "I want to be close to people. I want to be lighthearted in my connection. I don't
want to have to be so protective."

And when you asked the question, "How old is she or how am I," she just collapsed. She went
from being an adult in a suit to being a little kid in a suit. There was no verbal exchange after
that. The image was just that she shrunk down and she's actually a child in an adult suit and
so I had to get down on my knees to talk with her, and then there was no more talking after
that. It was just all kind of like... She became a baby at some point. When you asked, "What
would she want from you in the future?" She became a baby in my lap and we were just
sitting there on the floor and she wasn't really interested in how old am I really or any of that.
She was just like,"I'm a child. I'm a baby. What is 52? That has no meaning."

Dr. Richard Schwartz: That's beautiful. Thank you. All right. So Terese.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 53

Terese: Yes, hi, my name is Terese.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Go ahead.

Terese: Dr. Schwartz, I want to thank you for IFS after decades of therapy. I mean, it's non-
pathologizing and it gives me a lot of agency to do a lot of work myself, including your book,
Greater Than the Sum of Your Parts, which I've listened to many times. And I feel like this was
a great exercise for me because I feel like I'm so much in self now, but there's something that
does bring me... There is a protector still around and it's this feeling of superiority of women. I
can be a little aggressive about that. So, for me, that's what came to mind.

It feels like a bit of a sledgehammer to me, that I can use it as a sledgehammer. And what it
wants me to know about it is that it's angry and it's scared and it's a bit of a bluffer. I had a
very patriarchal father who was an angry person, and as the eldest of five daughters, I was
often the one that was in danger. Our parents were pretty neglectful. For instance, being
asked to get out of a float plane to help push us off the rocks on a remote Canadian lake and
walking into the propeller because when it's moving, you can't see it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: My God.

Terese: So, I have been missing a piece of skull.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Oh my God.

Terese: Yeah. Just, I mean, crazy stuff, but thank you. What would happen to me if it wasn't
there? I wouldn't have value and I wouldn't be respected if I weren't belligerent and feeling
superior. What would it like me to do if the energy were freed up? To work confidently. I was
an attorney, but throughout my life, I felt I had imposter syndrome. How old does it think you
are? It thinks I'm an adolescent. I think that's when. And how does it react when I give my
correct age? With grief. And let's see, what does it need for me to handle things more? It
needs maturity, to keep using the building blocks to become, to grow up, to continue to grow
up and see reality as it is. And yeah, that's it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: You know, I'm loving all these reports and the vulnerability we're
creating, and it's really a shame we’ve got to stop soon because when a group gets to this
point, there's so much you can do, but I really appreciate all of it. And maybe, Jessica, let's
hear from you.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 54
Jessica: So, I didn't manage to scribble down all of the questions as we were going through
because I was just really focusing, so I'll say what I remember.

My protector, I think, was just calling itself, "Shut down." And I felt it very strongly in my
throat. And I recognize it's the feeling of clamming up and not wanting to talk about how I'm
feeling in a moment of conflict when it would be very helpful to talk about how I'm feeling.
So, it's this shut down and this want to step away in my throat, but I think there were
hundreds of other voices that came in when you asked how I felt about it, and I had to put
them all to one side because they were all very loud. But then as soon as there was quiet and
I was curious about it, the feeling in my body went right down into the pit of my stomach and
it was about deep, deep sadness.

And I know that when I was asking it how old it thought I was, it thought I was seven. And
when I said that I'm 50, it responded with grief and just said, "You've been sad for a very long
time." And when I asked it what it was scared of, it said that "You will fall and you'll just keep
falling." We had some kind of conversation around that, "It's okay to be sad," and that, "I've
got you," and that, "you are safe in the sadness." Yeah, it was very interesting. And we
struggled a little bit around what it wanted to do differently, but I think it got to a place of
wanting to sing, and I do sing, and to speak out. Yeah, so it was very, very powerful and very
interesting. Thank you so much.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Thank you, Jessica. Again, I wish we had more time because we're just
at this point where there's so much work we could do, but we don't, but I'm grateful to you,
Megan, and to the whole group because I've had a great time with this. And I'm not an expert
on attachment theory, but I hope I was able to convey something about it, the similarities and
differences.

Dr. Schmidt: Thank you very much, Dick, and thank you, all of you out there, for being with us
and sharing this time together today. And I want to give a wholehearted thank you to you,
Dick, for sharing what I very clearly heard as the IFS model of how we can be the primary
caretaker of our own parts, and thank you for everything that you've shared today and we're
excited to have you again.

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Yeah, excited to do it.

Dr. Schmidt: Okay. Thank you, everyone. Okay. Goodbye for now.
IFS Approach to Foster Secure Internal Attachment Transcript - pg. 55

Dr. Richard Schwartz: Bye.