Week 2 Transcript – #6 – A Wiggly World – Alan Watts

Alan Watts: We can consider the pursuit of pleasure in two broad senses, one which might be
called lower, and the other, which might be called higher, although I'm not very happy with that
classification. There is the pursuit of material pleasure, an art very much neglected in this day
and age because it must be carefully distinguished from the pursuit of theoretical pleasure. The
pursuit of material pleasure is an art requiring a difficult discipline, much devotion and much
skill. And it ranges through all the activities of man, engineering, cookery, clothes, architecture,
love-making, and the so-called fine arts: music, literature, painting, sculpture and so forth. But
we are living in a culture where the pursuit of material pleasure is, as I say, neglected in pursuit
of a symbolic pleasure, which of course like many religions, has its prayer mat.

Because a monetary unit is of course useful in exactly the same way that inches and hours,
days, months, pounds, grams, and other units of measure are useful. But nobody has yet made
a claim to fame by collecting inches. "I have more inches than you." Because it is not a matter
of social agreement that the possession of inches represents the possession of wealth. It is a
matter of social agreement, and this is the only validity for money having any value whatsoever,
is that everybody agrees that the chips are worth so much. And money is exactly like poker
chips, except there's an agreement between all of us that we will accept them in lieu of goods
and services. But goods and services constitute real wealth.

And we are living in a society where, as I've often said, we are menu eaters. We eat the menu
instead of the dinner because we are more interested in accumulating the tokens of wealth
than wealth. And this flows over from symbols such as money itself into many other dimensions
of life because we tend on the whole to confuse symbol with reality. The idea that this world
that we see with our five senses is a material world is merely an idea. Materialism as a
philosophy of nature, dialectical materialism, naturalistic materialism, is a point of view. It's a
concept. It's very, very highly abstract notion. So equally, is the notion that this world that we
see with our five senses is basically mental or spiritual. That also is a concept. The actual world
is neither spiritual nor material. There is no way of saying what it is because it is like mystical
experience, ineffable. It cannot be effed or spoken from the Greek femi to say.
That world which is neither spiritual nor material is the neglected world. Most people think of it
as material, but it's very much overlooked. Symbols are substituted for it. We have symbolic
goods. People live in symbolic homes, drive symbolic automobiles, wear symbolic clothes,
which are valued for what they cost rather than for their quality. And this is of course, as I've
insisted, perhaps ad nausea, especially manifested in what we eat. Our standards of cooking are
improving, but by and large, the food of even wealthy people is disgraceful. It is symbolized by
bread, which is supposed to be our staff of life. Also in the pursuit of pleasure, in the form of
the fine arts, we don't really enjoy it. An enormous number of reasonably affluent people who
attend concerts and go to exhibitions of paintings go there because they think they're
improving their minds, that in some way doing things like that is good for you. People go to
church for the same reason. That's the last reason for going to church because it's good for you.
That is an absolutely morbid interest because it distracts you from what is going on.

If you listen to Bach because you think it's good for you, you are not listening. In order to listen
to Bach, you have to swing with it. And then you forget all about whether it's good for you or
not. In fact, it feels more like things that are bad for you. When you swing with Bach, it begins
to feel like sex. And as everybody knows, that's terribly bad for you. I'm not going to dwell at
any very great length on the niceties and the disciplines of the pursuit of pleasure in that so-
called lower sense. I only want to say in passing that if you don't have the realization that the
pursuit of material pleasure requires a certain degree of asceticism, you won't be able to
pursue any other or higher kind of pleasure because asceticism is not unpleasant. Asceticism is
like an olive between wines. It cleanses the palate. And what's the matter with olives? It is like
taking some sort of exercise, which can be very pleasurable indeed, provided you don't do it
grimly.

There is a dreadful exercise being used today called jogging, which has absolutely nothing to
recommend it because to begin with, when I watch people jogging, they obviously show they
don't know how to run. They're running mostly on their heels and that jars the bones all the
way through and upsets the vertebral discs and so on. And there's a certain grim determination
about joggers. They tend to run in straight lines, which they believe to be the shortest distance
between two points. A straight line is not the shortest distance between two points on earth
because earth is wiggly. It is not a flat surface except by courtesy of bulldozers and occasional
freaks of nature. This world, as I keep repeating, is a fundamentally wiggly phenomenon. But
wherever human beings have been around, you will see they have a passion for Euclideanism.
Everything is ruled out in straight lines and put in boxes and grid patterns of streets are laid
across the surface of the earth, and that tells you human beings have been there.

Why this passion for Euclidean order? Because Mr. Euclid had a very, very simple mind and
tended to think in these rather uninteresting shapes instead of in curvaceous wiggles. And
wiggliness offends some people because they are not sure of it. They can't figure it out. You
never know quite what it's going to do next. That's why people often don't like snakes because
a snake is the great symbol of wiggly vitality, of undulation, of waves, and all this world is
fundamentally a system of wave vibrations. And if you cannot wave with it, if you are rigid,
you'll always be resisting life. Wiggliness and going with wiggliness, in other words, do you

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swing? Is fundamental to the pleasure of life. But you see, where we think that order and
getting things in order is getting them squared away. We always say, "Let's get it squared away.
Let's get it straight." And so there are certain kinds of people who are called straights and
squares, who do not swing.

And as a result of that, they are out of harmony with a wiggly universe. And their attitudes
range from cookery at one end to religion at the other. Because a square religion is one that is
too abstract, that resists the flow element of life. It wants a canal instead of a river, and it
conceives heaven as a city rather than a rose garden. Paradise is a garden. And all the trouble
began when people substituted the heavenly city for the paradise garden. When in other
words, popes began to be called urban and unbelievers were called pagan. Because a pagans is
a country dweller, a man of the wiggles as distinct from a man of the streets, a liver under the
sky instead of one who lives in a box. Because the box you see is the great symbol of
classification.

What box are you in? All words are labels on intellectual boxes. Is it animal? Is it vegetable? Is it
mineral? Three boxes. Is it solid or is it a gas? Is it Republican or is it Democrat? Is it capitalist or
is it communist? Is it Christian or is it heathen? Is it male or is it female? All boxes. Because we
think in boxes, we live in boxes, all made out of ticky-tacky, and they all look just the same. And
whereas certain kinds of fish live in beautiful shells, glorious, spirally wiggles on them and lovely
colors, but we tend to want everything straightened out, you see? And that rigidity is always in
a fight with the surrounding fluidity. And so we are, as it were, landlubbers rather than men of
the waves.

And the British have always made a great thing about this because they've always associated
freedom with the ocean. "Who are so free as the sons of the waves? And Britons never, never,
never shall be slaves," because of this seamanship. Now, we think, you see, of the sea as fluid
and the land as solid, and nothing could be further from the truth as you've all experienced
recently in Southern California, the earth is not very solid, it flows. Where I live in Sausalito, we
have along the waterfront a lot of land that has been reclaimed. And not so long ago, they built
a marina quite close to us where they dredged out mud to make the marina, not realizing that
land is liquid. Therefore the land adjoining the water is sinking to fill up the hole made by
excavating for the marina. People just don't think of things like that because they think of land
as solid.

And so in religion, we are seemingly looking for solids, for something upon which I can take my
stand, for a firm foundation, for the rock of ages. Or even, poor Paul Tillich, for the ground of
being. But we are not living in that sort of universe. We are living in a fluid universe in which the
art of faith is not in taking one stand, but in learning to swim. You don't cling to, you don't try to
stand on water by breathing and by a certain relaxation. You learn to trust the water to support
you. This is even more true in flying in the air, gliding especially, or in sailing. In all those arts,
there is an adaptation to the fluid, and that is the major thing that we have to learn if we want
to survive as a species and survive happily. Nobody wants just to go on. One wants to go on in
an elegant way.

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And even that passion for survival is something against pleasure because nothing ruins pleasure
more than the anxiety to go on having it; more, more, more. Because that shows, when you ask
for more, more, more, and have the anxiety to go on, that you are not having it now. But you
always think it's coming, that you want jam tomorrow is more pleasing than jam today. And if
we say of something that is useless, it has no future. That's the most awful thing you can say
about it. I would rather say of something that's no good, it has no present, not that it has no
future. Because a future is merely a promise in the same way as this symbol is merely a promise
to pay; promises, promises, promises.

Therefore, it is fundamental to pleasure that one learns to wiggle and not be stiff and rigid. As
we would say, "Let go, relax." That doesn't mean become droopy. Relax means to become
supple. It also means to learn the strength of your weight, how to use weight, how to flow with
gravity. Water, for example, always flows with gravity and it wiggles. It takes the course of least
resistance and yet has tremendous strength. But to take the line of least resistance is
considered cowardly and despicable. "Go straight, right through," with a bulldozer ahead. Why
go straight? Well, you've got to get there. Fast, sway, shortest distance between two points.
And I get back to jogging. That is not the right way to run. The right way to run is to dance, to
dance across the countryside. And anyone who dances across the countryside will outwit and
out time the jogger.

I don't know if any of you witnessed the World Cup in soccer last year on television. I was won
by the Brazilian team, and I have never seen such soccer. That's not the way they taught us to
play it in school. As the sports writer in the London Times put it, "They danced their way to
victory," because the whole thing was like very fine basketball. Where instead of being this
tough, pushing to victory, they were lilting with the ball and the most incredible teamwork of
subtle passing, bouncing it off almost any part of the body with a capacity to give it direction,
with one's back, with one's shoulder, with one's hip, anything, head. It was a beautiful art and a
magnificent spectacle. But you see, we are not taught to do things that way because we are
taught that life is serious and therefore must be done in an efficient way, but according to
Euclidean ideas of efficiency.

In ancient times when people worked, they used to sing. Hardly anybody sings anymore except
at a performance of some kind, or singing hymn in church or something like that. Imagine a
bank teller singing as they were counting out the money: “Oh, the king was in his counting
house, counting out the money. Five, ten, and twenty, thirty, fourty, fifty…” Why not? What
would happen if you were confronted by a singing bank teller? We would complain to the
management and say, "This is money, it’s very serious, you can’t sing about it. Everything will
go wrong." Can you imagine a stockbroker's working song? I have seen people losing it over a
bus driver. And instead of thinking... Most people when they drive a bus and through city
traffic, they're cursing, and swearing, and being angry, and fighting the clock all the way
through town. Well, it's a disaster.

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But imagine driving a bus with the idea that going from here to there, the point wasn't to get
there, but the point was to go and dancing that bus through the streets with a very, very
skillfully accurate traffic dodging. And when you get to a stoplight and there's a jam, you play a
little tune on the horn. Or you pass jokes to the cab driver near you or you play with the
passengers. See, anything can be turned into juggling. That's why we used to have a ball. This
bus driver is swinging through the streets and he prides himself in the marvel of his topsy corian
art. But people don't do that because work is not supposed to be pleasant, because you get
paid for it. You're not supposed to get paid for enjoying yourself.

See, that's what I do, but I think I'm smart. I talk to you not because I think I'm doing you any
good, but because I like talking about these things, and if you pay me for it, then I make my
living, as simple as that. I'm a sort of philosophical entertainer. But that's the point, that the
transformation of work is swinging it. And the curse of work that came in the story of Genesis,
you see, work became a curse because the tree of knowledge was the knowledge not of good
and evil in the ordinary sense, but of the advantageous and the disadvantageous. The words in
Hebrew refer to the art of metallurgy. That's where the trouble begins, when we use
technology to get there fast. And the faster we get there, the less worth is the place of arrival,
because you've eliminated the distance between and that's what makes the difference
between here and there. The distance. If you take it away, then there is the same as here, so
there was no point going there. There's no point going from here to Honolulu, none, whatever
is the same place to all intents and purposes.

Certainly no point in going from Los Angeles to Tokyo. Well, I mean there are a few nice little
bars in Tokyo where you can get sushi, but you can get them in Los Angeles now because
Tokyo's come to Los Angeles. It's the same place and both have the same smog. The police in
Tokyo wear gas masks when they're directing traffic. Crazy. Is this wealth? Have a house in
Beverly Hills and live in poison gas. Crazy. That's wealth. Work, then, being regarded as a
method of getting there effectively. A lot of businessmen imagine that they are practical
people. They say, "I don't know for philosophy and that kind of thing. I'm a practical man. I like
to get things done."

What? I mean, what is practical? Well, you made money, but that's not practical until you
spend it, till you enjoy it. And it's very difficult to enjoy money. Money is a great responsibility,
besides if you get lots of it, you're afraid somebody's going to take it away. It gives you the
jitters. And lots of people think that if they had a little more money, their problems would be
solved. And they get it, and they worry about their health. There's always something to worry
about if you're the worrying kind, always. And it can get worse instead of getting better by
achieving all those things you think will stop you worrying.

The first principle in, we could call it the art of pleasure, is you must swing. And that means, or
at least it looks like superficially, that you mustn't take anything seriously. You must realize that
life is a form of dancing, and dancing is, of course, not serious. And that's why it's prohibited by
baptists and gloomy people of that kind. They don't approve of dancing. Even in the Catholic
Church, you don't normally see priests dancing. I mean, it's not because it's sexy. You can dance

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without partners of the opposite sex. You can dance by yourself, but it's considered undignified.
This was all started by one of David's wives, I think her name was, it wasn't Bathsheba, I forget
which one it was, perhaps somebody who remembers it better than I do. Anyway, he danced
before the Ark of the Covenant and she reproved him for being undignified because he didn't
sit stiff and rigid. But what is the virtue in being stiff and rigid?

As Lao Tzu said, "Man at his birth is supple and tender, but in death he is rigid and hard. Plants
when young are juicy and soft, but when old, they're brittle and dry. And thus suppleness and
softness of the signs of life, but rigidity and hardness are the signs of death." I suppose some
men confuse psychic rigidity with getting a hard on or at least substitute it for it as they
substitute guns, rocket ships, and other things of that kind to manifest a masculinity, which isn't
really there. But certainly women should uphold to us. I mean, the real secret of women's
liberation is the liberated woman, the woman who is the human serpent, the wiggly one, the
gentle one who has the power of water. And we should look to that, as Lao Tzu again said, "The
valley spirit does not die. The valley spirit, that is the spirit of the valley, that is the feminine," as
distinct from the mountain, which is the male.

And so while being a man, you should have a certain feminine element because then you will
become a universal channel. Hold to the masculine, yes, the mountain is necessary for there to
be a valley. You can't have valleys without mountains. But unfortunately, the gorgeous music of
Handel has prevented us from realizing the horror of that biblical passage. Every valley shall be
exalted and every mountain laid low and the rough places made plain. Why, it's happening all
over California. The feminine in the sense of the lilting, the playful, the curvaceous, the soft is
the neglected principle by all us Euclideans. And it is the principle of life and of nature.

But the problem that exists for rigid people, and we all get rigid in the sense of resistance,
resistance to life, resistance to change, is how on earth do I stop that syndrome, which makes
me go like this, uptight. How do I stop that? Because it's useless, almost useless. And do you
know that your basic sense of ego, of existing here and of being “I” as distinct from all that, do
you know, it is muscular tension of a certain kind, that is the physical basis of your sense of
identity. For example, you can try this experiment, maybe we'll just try it. It's the simplest thing
to do. I just want you to look a little downwards at whatever view is just in front of your eyes,
just allow your eyes to rest on that.

Just let the light, the color, play with your eyes. See, just rest it easy. Now, supposing I said,
"Now, I want you to look hard at it. Pay attention. To be totally attentive and aware of what is
in front of you. So look hard. Now do that. Do whatever you would do if somebody told you to
look hard.” Now, don't do it. Just see, don't look. Now again, look hard. And now don't do it.
What's the difference between the two states? What did you do when you were looking hard
that you didn't do when you were looking easy? Where? Huh?

Speaker 2:
Brain.

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Alan Watts:
How do you tense your brain? What did you tense? Huh?

Speaker 2:
Muscles around the eyes.

Alan Watts:
Muscles around the eyes. Anything else?

Speaker 3:
Temples.

Alan Watts:
Temples, yes.

Speaker 4:
Narrowed your focus to one thing instead of…

Alan Watts:
Narrowed your focus. Yes, that was a muscular action. Huh?

Speaker 5:
Power concentration.

Alan Watts:
What?

Speaker 5:
Power concentration.

Alan Watts:
Where do you feel concentration?

Speaker 5:
Everywhere. Your whole body…

Alan Watts:
You all go tense, tense all over. But you see, muscular tension in your jaw, in your focal muscles
has absolutely nothing to do with seeing. The focal muscles of the eyes, all they do is simply
open or close the aperture or move the lens in such a way that it becomes in focus. It doesn't
need any effort to do that. In fact, the effort you make when you look hard distracts from your
seeing. But we are constantly making efforts to do everything we do. For example, to will
something, we make all this absurd muscular's training. Grit your teeth doesn't help you to do
anything. And all this accumulates as a constant strain between the eyes and here, and that's

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what you call “I.” It's that sensation of totally unnecessary strain that exists all the time. That is
the ego, the physical reference of the idea, ego. Just that unnecessary strain, because that tells
you you exist. Teacher, I'm trying, at least give me a “B” for effort. And it doesn't work. Yes,
Jenna?

Jenna:
There is something, I don't know…other than near-sight do this.

Alan Watts:
Well, you can do it by squeezing like this. If you squeeze your face up and then look.

Jenna:
But that's because my eyeball's in motion.

Alan Watts:
Yes, that's right. Sure. And that's a bounce reaction, squeeze and look. But when you look in the
sense of staring, that does not increase the clarity of sight. We could say psychic staring is the
ego that we feel as being the center of myself, which is opposed to and which is resisting all
that is defined as not myself. And so that rigidity of holding against life so that I maintain my
shape, my form, my place, all the time. That constant resistance makes you uptight and unable
to swing through fear of what will happen if you let it wiggle. And so therefore, a non-wiggly
person is unadaptive in a wiggly world. And so you'll get these insectual mechanical-like
behavior patterns that have to go on, on, on, regularly, always the same, chug, chug, chug,
chug, chug, and they're not adaptable.

And it doesn't hold up as we watch. You see, it isn't holding up. The cracks are in the pavements
and the grass comes through, and we are squaring all the fish out of existence. What will there
be to eat? Somebody said, "We're going to be left with nothing but crows, crabgrass, and
inedible fish.” This, you may say it's a square world. But then, you can always, not by preaching
at people and condemning them, but by wooing them, you can get them to come off it. See,
that's the thing that I've often said that preaching is no good because on Sunday you go to
church, and the preacher says, "Bo, bo, bo, bo, boy," and lays down the law, law, law. In other
words, he throws the book at you. Look at a church, ordinary Protestant church looks like a law
court. The minister wears the same robes as the judge. He's got the book up there. And not
only does he tell you what to do, he tells God what to do. An endless talk fest goes on.

And when you get to sing, you sing hymns. Well, hymns are religious nursery rhymes. They all
have dreadful tunes and stupider of words. And that's all the singing. Maybe the choir does an
anthem, and nobody dances, and there's nothing mysterious going on except in the Catholic
Church, and they're trying to get rid of it. No, translate the mass into English that everybody
understands it and finds out a last what it meant after all. Sunday is supposed to be the day to
swing. Is that God worked for six days and seventh day rested, there is time out. Time out from
being rational, and methodical, and efficient. It’s like a Mardi Gras. It's like a carnival. You've got

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to be crazy a little because if you are not crazy at regular intervals, you become insane. Because
you're too rigid, you don't swing in the wind and thus so you're going to collapse.

But again, the problem remains for the rigid person, and we all have a rigidity. How on earth do
we release it? Because I notice that people who undertake programs of derigiditifying
themselves - it may be psychoanalysis, it may be therapy of some other kind. It may be
exercises, it may be sensory awareness training, it may be encounter groups, it may be yoga -
all sorts of derigiditifying processes are done in such a grim mood. I know as a book called You
Must Relax.

So, we come to the great question, where is there? You're going to get there, where is it? What
do you want? Where are you going? Very few people know. Some people have a precise, I
would say, disciplined, clear sense of what they want, and they get it and then they stop. As
G.K. Chesterton once wittily said, "Progress is looking for a place to stop." There're very few
people like that. Most people, you see, when they think of pleasure, they don't have any very
definite idea or else they have a definite idea which isn't really what they wanted. And when
they get it, they don't like it.

So the saying, "Be careful of what you desire. You may get it." But, fundamentally then, the
question arises, where is there? Where's your rush? Where are you going? To what are you
progressing? Stop, look, and listen because you may be there already, only that you don't
notice it. From the point of view of a starving Indian in a Kolkata slum, we are all as lucky as
Maharajas. Even the most penurious person in this room is by comparison a Maharaja. You are
there, you've arrived, but you say it can't last. "Eventually, I'm going to turn into a corpse." That
gives you the horrors, or you're going to take a painful route to that end. “It'll be a terminal
case in a hospital on the end of a lot of tubes.” And say, "I don't want to disintegrate."

How can I overcome that? You turn to religion and say, "Well, that's a physical demise as an
unfortunate limitation of the body. I'm going to identify myself with something beyond the
body so that I can believe that that will go on and that will be the true vehicle of my personality.
I shan't lose all that I've acquired," carrying around with me of my bag of rubbish. I managed to
smuggle it across the border. They say you can't take it with you, but you can if the gods can't
notice it, because the baggage is spiritual. Hey, do you know what the gate of heaven is, you
hear about the pearly gates? People think it's gates decorated with pearls. It isn't. The gate of
heaven, it says in the book of Revelation, is one pearl. Of course, it's got a hole through for the
string. You've got to get through there and you can't get through if you've got a lot of baggage.
You've got to leave your past behind to get through.

Now what happens to you when you get rid of your past? Forget it all. Forget who you are. The
future, of course, is the past reflected in your rear vision mirror. And as McLuhan says, he
borrowed the metaphor from me, as a matter of fact, "We’re like people driving, looking at
their rear vision mirror." You've got to let go of all that past in order to get in through the pearly
gate. Now, what is left of you when you let go your past? What remains? No, you can't bring
out your education. Can't bring out your ancestry. Can't bring out your distinguished

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accomplishments, the things you've done because they say, "Well, you've done all that, but let's
see what you can do now.” Huh? Where are you? Who are you when you have no past? After
all, there isn't any past. Where is it? Twist your common sense around and see that you're not
being shoved by the past. You're just leaving it behind like tracks. It's not pushing you unless
you insist on it.

We can always pass the buck. Everybody does that. They say, "I'm a neurotic mess because my
mother was a neurotic mess. I never had a fair chance in life." And somebody says to your
mother, "Well, you shouldn't have brought up a child like that." Well, she says, "It's too bad. I
know, but I couldn't help it. I was a neurotic mess, and my father was just appalling, and my
mother was dreadful." And they looked back over their shoulder and said, "Well, it was our
parents." Everybody passes the buck to the past till it gets back to Adam and Eve. And you know
what happened there, they passed the buck too, to the serpent. When God looked at the
serpent, he didn't ask, "Has thou eaten the fruit of the tree where off I told thee thou shall not
eat?" He just looked at the serpent. The serpent didn't say anything.

The serpent, the wiggle, it really doesn't have a past because it wiggles from its head backwards
to the tail, and it's always the head where it starts. Are you ahead or are you just a tail? Do you
move backwards or forwards? Which way are you going? See, if you are leaving your past
behind you, it doesn't drive you. It wells up out of a mysterious present ever new. This moment
is the creation of the universe. If you look back and back and wonder whether there was a big
bang a long time ago, all you'll see is vanishing traces. The big bang is happening now. This is
when the world begins. You're doing it. Only you're not doing it by straining, a you deeper than
the straining you is doing all this, the same you that is growing your hair, and coloring your
eyes, and making a thumbprints, and all that. You don't think about it. You don't strain muscles
to do it. But that is what is creating the world, here it comes.

Now. So instead of thinking that the past is the reality, which explains everything that happens
now, let's look at now, and see it happening. Where does it happen from? That's a question
asked only by people who think that the past causes the present. They always want to know
where it comes from. Who started it? What makes it happen? Supposing nothing makes it
happen. Supposing it happens. Well, what is it that happens? Again, we get to this basic
question. What is it that you want? Where is it? When? What you looking for? It's the same
question as what is reality? What is now? What is life? You won't get at it by analysis of all sorts
of things into their components. You won't get it by labeling it in various ways and calling it
names.

You can only find out what it is by looking at it, by feeling it directly. And all kinds of
classification where we say, "Well, it's animal, vegetable, mineral, this, that, and the other
thing," is putting it in boxes and tidying it up. That's how you tidy up. You put everything away
in a box and then you got boxes, inside boxes and all that sort of thing. Let's tidy it up. But when
it's all put away in the boxes, you can't see it. Instead of putting everything in boxes, let's just
look at it the way it comes. Now, that's enough to start with. I've therefore discussed the
principle of the necessity of wiggling, only when I say necessity, you mustn't take that word in a

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Calvinistic sense. We'll talk about the pleasure of wiggling as a means of adaptation to the
wiggly world. We'll have an intermission for about five to seven minutes.

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