Interview Report

Women’s Sports in Danger

Camila Avila Escobar

Nova Southeastern University Department of Com, Media, and Arts

COMP 2000

Professor Fernandez

March 8, 2023
 Women’s Sports in Danger

Background

​ My research paper will deal with how transgender athletes are affecting the world of

swimming specifically how transgender females are affecting the women category. This is a

topic that has gotten a lot of attention ever since Lia Thomas competed in the 2022 NCAA

Championships, and there are a lot of different arguments due to a lot of different opinions.

There have also been numerous scientific studies conducted that contribute to many of the

arguments. Thus, the research question I am trying to answer is: Should transgender females be

allowed to swim against biological women at an elite level?

​ The questions varied each interview. For the first interview, the questions focused more

on the interviewee’s experience swimming against transgender female, the environment of the

overall meet, and if it is possible that the NCAA will change their regulations following the ban

set by FINA. For the second interview, the questions were focused on whether an even playing

field was more important than inclusiveness followed by if they thought that transgender females

had an advantage over biological women and thus whether they should be allowed to swim

against them. Lastly, giving possible solutions to keep an even playing field to all athletes. Each

interview had the same aspects on the topic in question (such as having an advantage or

solutions), but each had different versions of the questions due to the interviewees coming from

different levels of swimming. I wanted to hear how swimmers at different levels thought about

transgender females competing in the women’s category specifically if they thought that

transgender females had an advantage over biological women. Lastly, I also wanted to know

what others thought are possible solutions in order to keep an even playing field and whether

those solutions could possibly be discriminatory towards a group.

possible answers that could be given in response to the questions. More specifically, I did think

beforehand that the interviewees would think that transgender females did have an advantage

over biological women and should not be allowed to compete against them. I also hypothesized

that they would offer the solution of having an open category.

​ The first interviewee was Riley Gaines, a former University of Kentucky swimmer. She

has qualified for the Olympic Tria1two times, twelve-time NCAA All American, five-time SEC

Champion, and SEC Record Holder for the 200 Butterfly. She was interviewed by Youtuber,

Kyle Millis, a former swimmer of University of California-Berkeley. I chose this online video

interview because Riley Gaines talks about her experience at the NCAA Championship swim

meet. She also describes the environment and how other female swimmers felt, and how they felt

abandoned by the NCAA.

​ The second interviewee was Triumph Perry, member of the NSU Swim Club and

swimmer for the past 14 years. As a swimmer, she would have an insight about how other female

swimmers could be feeling when it came to the subject of Lia Thomas. She expressed how it was

not fair to have transgender females compete against biological women. In this interview, I

decided to rely mostly on their opinions and feelings towards the subtopics of the research rather

than experience as Perry does not have an experience swimming against a transgender female.

Methods

One interview was not conducted by me but by Kyle Millis. He interviewed Riley Gaines. The

video of Riley Gaines’ interview was posted on August 14, 2022. My second interview was with

my friend, Triumph Perry. For this interview, I made a google doc with my questions and sent it

to Triumph for her to answer. I decided to interview her because she has a lifelong experience in
swimming, and I wanted to know her opinions and thoughts. Her interview was done on March

7th.

​ The most difficult part for me of the interview process was coming up with the questions.

It took me some time to decide what questions I wanted to ask. While some of the question I

came up with ease, I struggled with others. Eventually, I started to reflect on what I wanted to

know more about what others thought about the different aspects surrounding this controversy. I

also did some more research on the different opinions people had shared on Lia Thomas. After

hours of trying to come up with questions, I began to write questions about what I found people

argued about more.

​ I started with Riley Gaines interview as she has been very outspoken about her

experiences and opinions with Lia Thomas. Some of the questions that Kyle Millis asked her

questions about what happened at the NCAA meet. He began with general questions about what

it felt to be swimming at the meet and what the environment was like. He then moved on to

questions that dealt with her personal experience swimming against Lia Thomas and how it felt

to not only swim against her but also tie. Millis asked about how the women swimmers were

reacting to the situation as many were being silenced with the addition of the NCAA favoring

Lia Thomas over the women swimmers. After hearing her whole interview, I realized that Riley

Gaines was able to give me another viewpoint on my research question, and I realized that the

topic of transgender athletes in women swimming is more complicated that it seemed at first as

there is so many factors affecting the situation.

​ For Triumph Perry’s interview, I decided to come up with different questions that Riley

Gaines answered. As my first interview focused more on experience, I decided to ask Triumph

Perry questions that focused more on her opinions and thoughts on not only Lia Thomas but on
transgender athletes. I felt this was necessary as Perry could tell me another perspective I had not

thought of yet. She was able to answer my questions via Goggle Doc as I thought it would be

more beneficial to the both of us.

Results

​ Doing both interviews allowed me to have first-hand perspectives of what I have been

reading in the news articles. This is a topic that has a lot of controversy and a lot of different

sides, but there is a general consensus when it comes to certain areas of the subject.

Competitive Fairness

​ When asked about the competitive fairness of transgender females with biological

women, both interviewees agreed that it was not fair as they both think that they have an athletic

advantage. Gaines mentioned that while testosterone suppression is a factor, there are other

factors that cannot be changed like lung capacity (important in swimming because swimmers

have to rely on aerobic capacity) your heart size. Perry also agreed that factors like genetic body

make up, lung capacity, and muscle mass affect a swimmer’s performance. She stated how she

believes Lia Thomas has not gone through the full transition from being a male to female

because before she went through the transition, she was ranked 554 in the men’s division but

now is ranked number one in the nation for women. Perry thinks that it is unfair to the women

who have been dedicated to the sport and that it is destroying women’s sports. She also added

that choosing inclusiveness over competitive fairness would create many loopholes.

Priority

​ Many women swimmers are being silenced to not speak out about this situation. Whether

it being threatened by their own university or cancel culture, these women don’t want to speak

out in fear of losing their scholarship or possible job opportunities. Perry agreed that women
won’t speak out because it’s such a controversial topic and people don’t want to be canceled just

because people have different views and have their life ruined. Not only are these women being

silenced, but they are also being sidelined by the NCAA. Gaines explained how when she tied

with Lia Thomas for fifth place, the NCAA had Thomas hold the fifth place trophy and her pose

with the sixth place trophy and that she would receive her trophy in the mail. When she asked

why it would be like this, they replied that they were doing it in chronological order. Gaines also

stated that many of them had to receive media training organized by their university in order to

not say the wrong thing. If any swimmers were uncomfortable about changing in the locker room

with someone with male parts, the universities would suggest that they seek counseling. It had

been clear that the NCAA turned their back on the other women swimmers and chose to

prioritize inclusiveness over all the other women swimmers.

Solutions

​ When asked about possible solutions, both interviewees mentioned the possibility of

having an open category. Gaines believes that no one should be denied the chance to compete

and thinks that having that open category would be a way to ensure athletic opportunity, success

at an elite level, and keep the playing fields even. Perry said that an open category is a good idea

because it would allow them to still be able to compete. When asked about if she thought it could

be discriminatory, Perry replied that it would not because it would allow them to compete not

just with males and females, but within their own category.

Conclusion

Both of my interviews allowed me to have some new insights into my research topic. For Riley

Gaines, I was able to see what it was like competing against a transgender female and how many

of the other biological women felt like they were abandoned by the NCAA.
 Appendix

Transcription of Interviews

Riley Gaines, former University of Kentucky swimmer (12x NCAA All American, 2x Olympic

Trails Qualifier, 5x SEC Champion, SEC Record Holder for the 200 Butterfly)

Q: I’d kind of love if you could just walk me through the NCAA meet. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 2:38)

A: In swimming, we’re not used to a ton of national coverage, so being there having all those

media people there and all the protesters, it was a huge distraction. Not to mention all the talk

among the deck. All the girls were disgruntled by this. There’s lots of whispering, lots of

chatting, lots of tears, extreme discomfort, and it was a huge distraction. I think there was seven

American records or something crazy broken by these amazing female athletes at the meet, but

no one heard a word of that, so it was like we had all this coverage but not the coverage we

wanted. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 2:44-3:23)

Q: Understandably. I mean you have incredible swims coming out of this meet. It’s probably not

the way most of those girls want to go out and how they really wanted to win. (Kyle Millis,

2022, 3:24-3:37)

A: You’re exactly right and being at that meet talking to those girls, talking to tons of swimmers

across in Sibley, that was a general consensus is that this is something that has been taken away.

It’s something we’ve just worked for all year towards, it’s something we’ve worked our whole

lives towards, we’ve dedicated ourselves to the sport. We’ve dedicated ourselves to the NCAA,

and so to have the whole perspective shifted, and the NCAA completely turned their backs on us

females. It’s incredibly disheartening, and it kind of just leaves your mind blown a little bit.
I actually had to go through media training before the meet which doesn’t sit right with me. I

don’t want anyone to tell me what I have to say and how I say it, but we had to go through media

training…They were trying to teach us how to be respectful and how to use the correct pronouns

and things like that which initially didn’t sit right with me but I understand they’re coming from

a tough place where they don’t want any bad light brought to the school, but my philosophy is

I’m not going to be told what to say.

My athletic director, my coaches, they support me fully. They were telling me to speak my heart

which I then realized is kind of an anomaly. There are so many other girls who were threatened

and intimidated and told they can’t speak out or they’ll lose their scholarship. They won’t get a

job in the future. The ivy league would actually sent an email that said if they felt uncomfortable

about changing in a locker room with someone with male parts then they should seek counseling,

so all of these different infringements upon your speech is just really crazy. (Kyle Millis, 2022,

3:40-6:39)

Q: Would you be able to dive in kind of and talk about that trophy incident for that 200 freestyle

final? You’re going to the A final at NCAA’s which means you are one of the top eight

swimmers in the country. That’s like mind-boggling in itself but this is all overshadowed by Lia

Thomas being in that heat. Talk me through that nigh. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 6:42-7:03)

A: Obviously it’s a bit of a defeating feeling before you even swim, but we swam. I looked up at

the board, and before I honestly even looked at what time I went or what place I went I was so

curious you know who won especially after watching Thomas the night before and win a

national title. So, I looked at the board and I saw Thomas had a five which indicated fifth and I

was really surprised and then I looked at my own name and I saw five by my name as well. I

kind of looked at my teammates for reassurance like ‘did we really just tie’ and you know all
their jaws were on the floor especially considering they knew how I felt about the situation

already. Swimming ties are fairly rare especially in a longer distance like 200 and so they don’t

account for that in terms of the trophies. So, we go behind the podium where they’re distributing

those, and the official says to me ‘Great swim. We’re going to give Thomas the trophy. Yours

will come in the mail. You can pose with the sixth place trophy, and so at the time I’m relatively

understanding because I know they didn’t account for a tie. I was like ‘okay, but can I ask why

you’re adamant on Thomas is holding the trophy?’ and he looked at me and said, ‘well we’re just

doing this in chronological order’. I’m like ‘what are we being chronological about because we

tied so can you tell me what we’re being chronological about?’ and he was like ‘well we need

Thomas to hold it for photo purposes. Yours will come in the mail. Nice job.’ At this point is

when I realized not only were we forced to compete against men, but the biological males were

given a preferential treatment over females. We were completely put on the back burner and

sidelined and that’s when it hit me no one else is going to speak about this. (Kyle Millis, 2022,

7:05-8:54)

Q: Could you talk about the physical stature and size comparison of what her anatomy was like

because I know that this is what people like to touch on a lot of complaints came from. One, the

NCAA didn’t do enough around the actual regulations of what it takes to be a scientific female,

so I know this is what a lot of people touch on. Could you touch on one appearance and then two,

what the NCAA’s rules were like leading into that and then what do you think they should do

moving forward? (Kyle Millis, 2022, 9:15-9:48)

A: I believe the NCAA’s requirement is about 10 nmol a liter of testosterone but the average

female is 0.8 to 1.2. So even with 10 nmol a liter, it’s not even comparable to female athletes. It’s

crazy that they think taking this hormone suppression at a level comparable to females because
even with this hormone suppression there are still certain factors that just can’t be changed like

your lung size which is important in a sport like swimming where you have to rely on your

aerobic capacity and your heart size. All of these things add up and so I think if you look at

pictures, you see someone who’s five six standing next to someone who’s six four that’s an

obvious advantage but it’s a lot deeper than that. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 9:48-10:53)

Q: This spring FINA came out and said that they’re banning all transgender athletes in creating

an open category. What do you think the NCAA’s response should be? Should they follow the

governing body? Should they follow USA swimming? Where does the NCAA move forward, or

do you think the NCAA is just going to say, ‘we’re done; we’re not going to make any new

regulations?’ (Kyle Millis, 2022, 10:56-11:16)

A: I would have initially said the NCAA will make a change but after this whole NCAA woman

of the year kind of shenanigans and where they actually accepted the nomination by UPenn of

Lia Thomas for woman of the year clearly, they’re idolizing this now and they’re pushing this.

I’m not sure the NCAA is willing to take any sort of accountability or willing to make any

changes, but I honestly think in a sport like swimming, having that open category I think it’s a

way to ensure everyone athletic opportunity which I think is important. I don’t want anyone to

not have a chance to compete. I don’t think anyone should be denied of that no matter who you

are, and so I think that’s a way to ensure athletic opportunity. I think it’s a way to ensure success

at an elite level and keep the playing fields even. I think having that is a fair way to appease

pretty much everyone. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 11:27-12:30)

Q: Any part of that experience that you haven’t touched on that you want to share?

A: There is actually one thing that I feel should be kind of noted. It’s that there was actually

another transgender at the meet who was female converting to male who went by he/him so
didn’t identify as female but was swimming with the females. I think this just kind of proves the

point that the women’s category in this sense was kind of a catch-all. I think that’s what the

media is not hitting on. It’s not that we’re throwing a fit about transgender athletes because you

haven’t heard anyone speak out about Isaac because technically, they’re a female competing with

the females. There’s not much argument to be had there because that’s almost in a sense what

we’re advocating for. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 12:37-13:22)

Q: Is there something you would say to all other female athletes who are going to be competing

against inevitably competing against transgenders in the future? (Kyle Millis, 2022, 13:22-13:29)

A: Use your voice. That is something that I have realized through this whole experience. You’re

told that you will be canceled, that you’ll be shamed, that you’ll never get a job; but since

speaking out, it’s been the total opposite for me. (Kyle Millis, 2022, 13:32-13:46)

Triumph Perry, Freshman Marine Biology Major at NSU and member of the NSU Swim Club

Q: Should the goal of elite sports be competitive fairness or inclusiveness? Why?

A: I believe sports should be competitive fairness. Every sport should be placed there, but when

it comes to certain things, there’s a line that should not be crossed. Because I feel like with

competitive inclusiveness, it can create a lot of loopholes and controversy in a lot of areas within

the sports.

Q: How do you feel about transgender females like Lia Thomas swimming against biological

women at an elite level?

A: I believe that it is unfair. As a swimmer who has been swimming for 14 years competitively

do not think this is right. I believe Lia Thomas has not gone to the full transition from being a

male to female. Before Lia Thomas’ transition, Lia was ranked 554 in the men’s division. Now
Lia is ranked number one in the nation for women. when you look at Lia while she is swimming

you can just look at the body mass, the amount of muscle and strength that Lia has went

swimming against women. You have women who have been dedicated to the sport, working their

butt off and sacrifice so much to get where they are and having someone just take that away from

you is unbelievable and upsetting. It is destroying women’s sports.

Q: What do you think about the decision that World Aquatics (FINA) made to ban transgender

athletes from competing at an elite level in swimming?

A: I think that decision is fair right now, but in the future, they can have their own category

where they are able to compete.

Q: Do you think that the new ban can result in other rules in the future?

A: Yes, I feel like the rules will be stricter as time goes on. New categories where people will be

placed.

Q: Do you believe that transgender females have an advantage over biological women?

A: Absolutely, you see it in other sports like track and field. Not just in swimming too.

Transgender females still have that muscle mass within their body and it’s hard to get rid of that.

It takes years and years to get rid of that. They have to go a certain number of years to be fully

transitioned.

Q: If yes, how would you describe the type of advantage they have? If no, why do you think they

don’t?

A: Genetic body make up, lung capacity, strength.

Q: How do you feel about transgender athletes having their own open category to compete in?

A: I feel like that is a great idea because it allows them to compete and to do whatever they want

in that category.
Q: Do you feel that an open category can be discriminatory?

A: No, because it allows them to give a chance to basically compete but in a different category,

they’re still able to compete, but not just with males and females, but within their own category.

Q: Can you give me an example of other possible solutions to transgender athletes competing in

women’s sports?

A: Having a different category other own. They can have their own category like males and

females.

Q: What do you think about swimmers being silenced to speak their opinions on the subject?

A: Yes, because it’s such a controversial topic and people don’t want to be canceled just because

people have different views. And have their life ruined because of this matter.
 References

Kyle Millis. (2022, August 14). Riley Gaines SPEAKS OUT about Transgender

Swimmer Lia Thomas [Video]YouTube. [Link]

your comments will help your partner improve his or her paper; email it to your partner, and

copy me for credit. Do not upload anywhere. 5 points for four reviews.

1. ​ Take a look at the formatting: APA rules, cover page, title on second page as well,

pages numbered, all sections included with headings, no extra line spacings between

paragraphs or sections, grammar errors.

2. ​ Background: answers all questions in the prompt, including research question and

hypotheses.

3. ​ Methods: Each report asks different questions. Make sure that the methods are

covered in detail.

4. ​ Results: ordered by significance and reported by theme or topic that tells readers

what you discovered from your research by describing and interpreting findings. In-depth

section about what you discovered.

5. ​ Conclusion: what your results reveal about your topic, how they help to answer

your research question, and why they are meaningful; you may also mention any

researcher or participant biases, research design flaws, oversights/missed opportunities,

and/or directions for future research.