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Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Julie McManus

Bob Bly: My name is Bob Bly and I'm interviewing Clayton Makepeace,
who is one of the handful of copywriters in the world – freelance
copywriters – who makes more than a million dollars a year and
some years, $2 or $3 million, strictly as a freelance copywriter.

So this is, to my knowledge, the first time ever we have an

opportunity to learn from a million dollar copywriter his secrets for
being outrageously successful as a freelance copywriter. So
without further delay, I just want to dive into it, because we have
today an hour.

Now, the one thing I wanted to get to in terms of housekeeping

before we started – not everyone came to this through the Total
Package or through your e-letter. Some came from other sources.
So you do publish a – now, Clayton – an e-newsletter, correct?

Clayton Makepeace: That's correct.

Bob Bly: And what's the name of it?

Clayton Makepeace: We just started it in June, and it's called Makepeace Total Package.
Actually, it's called the Total Package. And the – if anyone on the
call hasn't subscribed, the subscription is free and you're welcome
to point your browser to [Link] – that's
M-A-K-E-P-E-A-C-E Total Package, no spaces, .com. And you'll
find an option form there that will get you our weekly issues from
now on, free.

Bob Bly: So you gotta get that weekly. But let's get right into it. Lots of
people – there's – when I started copywriting 25 years ago, it was
like an unheard of profession. There were a few people doing it,
but no one knew what it is. But now, it's sort of a hot thing and
everybody's saying, oh, this is the greatest job going. Is that true?
Is it really good?

Clayton Makepeace: Well, I think it is. I started back in the early 70s, after having
worked in television and film for a while, and found in '74 that
there was no work then, because of the recession. And so I found a
job with an ad agency for $15,000.00 a year. That doesn't sound
like much, but I had no training and I had no experience and I was
a high-school dropout and after all, $15,000.00 a year in '74 is the
same as $62,000.00 in 2005 dollars. So it wasn't a bad way to
start.

Within six years, I was doing over a quarter – well, doing very
close to a quarter million dollars a year in today's money. Within

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eight years, I was over $700,000.00 in today's money. And in the

early '90s, I hit a million dollars a year and never looked back.

Bob Bly: So did you have a mentor or a coach who got you into that? How
did you discover how to do this?

Clayton Makepeace: No, that's the beauty of it. I had a few books that I read, Reality in
Advertising by Rosser Reeves, Scientific Advertising by Claude
Hopkins, Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples, Ogilvy on
Advertising and Confessions of an Advertising Man by Ogilvy –
David Ogilvy.

And then to get the nuts and bolts of the business, I read Successful
Direct Marketing Methods by Bob Stone, and that was my
foundation in the business. And then after that, I just really started
watching what people were mailing and studied each package very
carefully.

Today, everybody on this call I think is far ore fortunate than I was
because I had to learn and make it up as I went along. There
weren't coaches. There were no e-zines telling you how to do it.
There was nothing. And so I think copywriters starting today
really have a leg up.

Also, a lot of top copywriters today are taking on copy cubs and
doing mentoring with them. As a way to extend their own income,
they're accepting beginning writers as copy cubs and training them.
I've done that six or seven times now, and each one of those
writers is a mid to high six-figure writer or a million-dollar writer.

Bob Bly: Can you name a couple of them, or is it confidential?

Clayton Makepeace: Not at all, no. Carlene Anglaid Cole – I think my readers are
familiar with the name – came to me in the mid-1990s. She was
making six figures a year as a marketing assistant with publishing,
but she was not a trained copywriter by any stretch of the
imagination. And she asked me if, as a friend, I would help her
break into this business and I did and her very first year, she made
more as a copywriter than she had been making with her six-figure
salary at Phillips.

When Kent Komae came to me, he was a five-figure writer just

getting started and I hired him to help me with some work I had at
Weiss Research, and Kent is now a solid six-figure writer. The
same is true with Bob Hutchinson. Parris Lampropolous took off

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like a house afire and is making seven figures now as a copywriter

and has his own copy cub.

And there are a couple of others. Brian London, who now is a

refugee from New Orleans living in Baton Rouge after the
hurricane, made enough money as a copywriter that he bought
Jefferson Financial from his boss and now runs the New Orleans
Investment Conference and has several newsletters and trading
services that he publishes. I hired Brian from a radio station,
where he was writing spots for local customers – clients.

So of the six or seven people that I've worked with over the last
five or six years, every one of them has done very, very well for
themselves and so – I just – I've seen it. It's happened to me. I've
seen it happen to other people. It's great.

Bob Bly: So you're not an anomaly, as they say, in the matrix? It can be
done?

Clayton Makepeace: Not only can it be done, but these young guys are doing it faster
than I did. It took me a considerable amount of time to hit the
million-dollar mark and Parris did it in a matter of just a few years.

Bob Bly: Now, speaking of people who start out younger or are starting out
maybe after another career – the guys you all mentioned work for
major clients, but for many people listening to this call – especially
novices – the idea of going out and contacting and selling yourself
to a major client is very intimidating. How did – for example,
when you started, how did you overcome this?

Clayton Makepeace: It was a tough one for me, because – right now, promoting the
Total Package means I have to promote myself and my
background, my experience, and that's the hardest thing I've done
in probably 20 years, because it's just not my nature to do that.

The same was true when I was getting started with copywriting. I
had tremendous insecurities and stage fright and when I would be
faced with – fortunately, I was unemployed when I went freelance.
By definition, I was unemployed and I had a wife and two kids and
an overhead I had to meet every month. And so I would wake up
on the first of each month with no money coming in and I had no
choice but to bang the phone and to contact clients and say, here I
am.

But I had a lot of problem with that. It was not easy, because I'd
be talking to a marketing manager at KCI, which was Bob

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Gephardt's company back in the old days, and I would have seen
their promotion pieces for months and was impressed by them and
was studying them and trying to learn from them, and here I was
on the phone with the copy chief, who directed the production of
that piece. It was pretty daunting.

But I found out very early on that they were more interested – at
least as interested – in most cases, more interested in talking to me
than I was to them, because their jobs were dependent on finding
great copywriters to promote their product.

Bob Bly: But at the time, you may have been great in terms of your raw
talent, but you were not a proven commodity – I mean, a proven
force at that time, were you?

Clayton Makepeace: Absolutely not.

Bob Bly: So why would they talk to you?

Clayton Makepeace: It all turned around for me when I realized that sales copy is the
one missing ingredient that these companies need to promote their
existing products and to add new products. They can't grow
without great sales copy. And after I learned that, I learned that
these people have committees and meetings and managers whose
only job is to go out there, beat the bushes, and find the next hot
copywriter.

And if you can come in with some good ideas, a couple of good
samples of your work, and then talk to them about how you would
improve what they're doing now – give them a few ideas – it costs
them more not to test you than it does to go ahead and give you a
try.

Bob Bly: So you're saying – which I think is a revelation to a lot of people

on this call – that rather than – when the copywriters on this call
contact these publishers – rather than being a pest and an
annoyance, we're actually helping them do their job. Their job is
to look for this.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. When a marketing manager at a major direct marketing

company, direct response company, a publisher, vitamin sales
company, whatever – finds a copywriter who proves to be an asset
to that company, it's a feather in that marketing manager's hat.

The person who first hired me to do a health promotion at Phillips,

the person who fires hired Gary Bencivenga to do a financial

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promotion at Phillips – these people now are heroes. Finding great

writers got them the corner offices, the company cars, the big
bonuses, and all the things that go along with moving up in a
company.

Bob Bly: Well, I understand they're looking, but when you're a beginner and
you call them, beyond the fact that they're looking, then, the
question becomes, well, why should they be interested in you?
How did you overcome that as a beginner? Did you have some
great samples? Did you create some great samples? How did –
once – obviously, they had a need, but how did you sell you,
Clayton, as the solution to that need? I understand how you do it
now – you have a great track record – but back then, I don't think
you did. You were a beginner, right?

Clayton Makepeace: No, I didn't. The first thing that I did, really – in fact, everyone
who's on this call, I hope, has received the two bonus reports that
we offered with the call. And one of the bonuses is how to get
paid to build a power pack portfolio. And in there, I talk about
how – exactly how I did it, Bob.

There were several ways. One was, the challenge. I picked up a

phone one day – I remember, I had $70.00 in the bank because I
had just returned a rental truck that I had used to move my family
from Los Angeles to Prescott, Arizona – I picked up the phone and
I called a publisher I knew in Phoenix – I knew of in Phoenix –
who I was just dying to write for. He had seven or eight
newsletters that he promoted. It was Johnny Johnson at Research
Publications. And I just told him on the phone that I thought his
package stunk and that I could beat it, and by the time I got off the
call, I had an assignment. Now, I had offered him to write the
package for him for free, and that he would only pay me if it
worked. I felt, at the time, I had to make an offer like that for that
very reason. He didn't know me. I didn't have a big portfolio. I
had some direct marketing promotions I had written, including an
audition I had done earlier for an advertising agency and a few
product promos for everything – water heaters, a restaurant in
Beverly Hills, those kinds of things that I had picked up – but I had
no newsletter promotions.

And so I basically used this – an offer that was too good to refuse.
Let me spend a month of my life trying to create a breakthrough
for you, and if it doesn't work, you don't owe me a cent.

Bob Bly: So it was kind of risk-free?

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Clayton Makepeace: It was risk-free for him. It was a no-brainer.

Bob Bly: And he went for it, it sounds like?

Clayton Makepeace: He absolutely went for it, and within a year, I was doing
promotions for all seven of his newsletters.

Bob Bly: Now, the question would be, though, that was then, this is now. A
lot of copywriters e-mail me and they say, I'm very worried. I look
on the Internet and it seems there are all these AWAI students and
there are all these copywriting boot camps and there are so many
copywriters today, so now, is it different? Are there too many
copywriters, or is the demand still greater than the supply in
copywriting? You would know, so tell us.

Clayton Makepeace: Sure, I had a conversation with Ed Elliott at Phillips Publishing

today. He's their creative director. He's in charge of finding new
talent. And in fact, he's been calling me, pursuing me, at least
weekly, for the last month, to help him find new writers. And
they're desperate.

Now, this is Phillips, okay? They pay very substantial – or it's not
– I'm sorry, not Phillips anymore, it's Healthy Directions now; I
have to remember that. But they pay substantial royalties, they pay
solid advances, they're willing to try young writers, and they're
desperate for new talent. They have a very large product line.
They're wanting to add new products. They can't do it until they
get new writers. They're desperate. And Phillips is one of the
Rolls Royces of the whole publishing industry. So I know that it's
still the case.

Now, if you go in there and you have nothing that has mailed for
another client, but you do – especially for another newsletter or
supplement company – but you have an audition piece you wrote
or –

Bob Bly: Explain what you mean by an audition piece.

Clayton Makepeace: An audition piece would be something that I think our AWAI
students are very, very familiar with.

Bob Bly: We call them spec assignments.

Clayton Makepeace: Right, a spec – well, there are spec assignments and there are spec
assignments. There are the projects that you actually do as a
student of AWAI and there are some other writing courses as well.

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Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: And as part of your education, you have created these assignments.
Then there are the spec assignments that – where you actually look
at a product and a promotion piece that – let's say, Phillips – is
doing.

You'd pick a newsletter – let's say it's Health and Healing, Jillian
Whitaker's newsletter – and you look at the package they're
mailing to promote that, and you take as long as you want –
because they don't know you're doing it – and you write the best
promotion that newsletter has ever had, the best promotion you
know how to write.

And then once it's done, you send it to Ed Elliott over at Phillips,
or you do it for Agora, you send it Jenny Thompson at the health
group at Agora, or one of the other creative directors or group
publishers at these major publishing companies. You do that, you
tell them that you'd like to talk to them about it, then you get them
on the phone and you say, look, I just wrote this package for you. I
think it's got great potential. I think it can beat what you're mailing
now.

And one of several things will happen. They'll either say,

absolutely, we want this package, how much you want for it?
That's when you get to tell them what your deal is, and we can get
to that in a minute. Or they'll say, it's close, but no cigar, but we'd
like to work with you a little bit on it and we think it has potential.
And now you've got a copy chief at a major publisher who's going
to work with you through the copy. It can be a – they're basically
going to pay you to learn.

Now, there are two educations. There's the education that you pay
for and there's the education you get in the real world where people
pay you, and that's what starts, when this kind of thing happens.

The worst thing they can do is just basically say, uh, you know
what, we've – and they'll be nice, believe me – they'll say, well, we
just don't have need for a writer right now. They're lying through
their teeth, but they're trying to be nice to you. What they're really
saying is, you're not quite there yet.

Bob Bly: So what do you do in that case?

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Clayton Makepeace: You say, that's great, well – and ask them for suggestions. What
do you think I could do to become the kind of writer that you
would want to hire? And these people are nice people. After 30
years with these folks, they're friends of mine. They went to my
wedding. They – when we get on the phone, we chat for way
much longer than we should about family and about other things.
These are nice people.

And they're highly motivated to discover the next great writer, so

my suggestion is, take a deep breath and take the bullet and say,
you know what? I really appreciate that. You're being quite
honest with me here. I was just wondering what I – what you
might think I might do, who I might talk to, what were the weak
spots you saw in the copy? And pick their brain, and they'll be
more than happy to talk to you about it.

Bob Bly: Now, if they don't jump on what you've sent them and say, yeah,
we want to mail this, how much, is there – how can you convince a
reluctant client who's maybe sitting on the fence and says, well,
maybe you could work out, to give you that shot?

Clayton Makepeace: Well, that's kind of the art of the deal again. You can simply offer
to finish the package to their satisfaction for no up-front fee and for
a royalty. You can offer to do this one for them at a substantially
reduced royalty. Whereas normally, you would ask $30.00 a
thousand for a health package or $40.00 a thousand - I think
$30.00 is about reasonable – on this one, you'll say, look, I'll tell
you what. Not only won't I charge you advance, you help me
finish this – you copy chief me to finish this – and I'll only take
$10.00 a thousand. I know it'll take a little longer, it'll take a little
more of your time, but I think it's a good investment.

And I think you'll be surprised how many people will accept that
kind of an offer.

Bob Bly: So let's look at those fee arrangements. First, there is the royalty
only, and you're saying a royalty can range from anywhere from
$10.00 to $30.00 per thousand?

Clayton Makepeace: Sure. Hey, Bob before I jump into that –

Bob Bly: Yeah.

Clayton Makepeace: Let me just add one last thing here.

Bob Bly: Sure.

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Clayton Makepeace: When you do one of those spec assignments – say you do the one
for Health and Healing we were just discussing.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: When you send it into Ed Elliott over at Phillips, go ahead and
send it to Jenny Thompson and other people, too, and just tell
them, here's a package I am creating for Phillips at Health and
Healing. Here's a – it's a rough draft still, but it's in process and it's
a sample of my work.

So the thing that you wrote for Phillips could generate money for
you from Phillips, but it could also be a sample or a sales tool that
you can show around the industry and let people know that you're
a serious writer and that you're talking to people who are hiring
serious writers.

Bob Bly: If you show it to people – let's say you do it for a Phillips
publication – and you show it to people other than Phillips, like
Agora or Sound View, do you tell them it's a spec assignment, or
do you not say anything about it?

Clayton Makepeace: I would not. If they ask about what kind of arrangement that you
have with Phillips, I would absolutely go ahead and be honest. It's
a very small and incestuous business. They – all of the
competitors know each other. They go to the same conferences
and they talk to each other and they compare notes on copywriters.
They'll never tell you – if they have a hot new copywriter, they
will not tell the competitors that. But what they will tell them is if
they're working with a copywriter and it's well-known and they'll
say, well, he's spotty or he's not consistent or he's really good, if
that's already well-known.

But just be aware that these – your clients talk to each other. They
hang out with each other. They go to the same conferences. And
anything you say to a client, there's a very, very good chance it's
going to be repeated to other prospective clients.

The other thing is, you have to be a little careful when you're doing
this kind of thing because you don't want to post it on the Internet
or blast it out in big mailings to people, because if Phillips does
accept your work and give you an assignment, then they're not
going to appreciate the fact that you've taken copy they're about to
mail and showed it to all of their competitors.

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But so long as they don't have a commitment to you, so long as

they haven't told you that they are absolutely gonna mail it, you
can get by with it. Just be a little bit subtle about it.

Bob Bly: That makes sense.

Clayton Makepeace: Yes.

Bob Bly: Now, you are – I think, because I've heard you – a really good
negotiator and you seem to negotiate and arrange all of your own
deals. And you've said to me that there are about half a dozen
different combinations and permutations of fee arrangements for
copywriters under which the top people work. Can you run
through those for us?

Clayton Makepeace: Sure. When I first got started, basically, we were working on flat
fees. Believe it or not, in the '70s, to write a direct mail package, I
got $600.00 flat and that was to write an eight to 16-page sales
letter. Everything was enveloped back then. Nobody used – in our
industry, at least – was using self-mailers, magalogs, or tabloids.

And so I got $600.00 to do it and to add insult to injury, there was

no Federal Express, so if I had to get something to a client quickly,
I had to buy a seat on an airplane for it. The only fax machines we
had were these little quip machines and it took three minutes to
transmit one page and you had to load each page separately and
they stunk to high heavens when they were doing it.

And we were writing on IBM Selectric Typewriters, so every draft

meant a complete retyping of the entire project. And for that, we
got $600.00 flat fee.

For new writers, especially working with the Internet and

especially working with local clients and companies that are not
familiar with royalty arrangements, a flat fee is a good option
because it's a great way to get some samples in your portfolio.

Bob Bly: So flat fee?

Clayton Makepeace: Yes. Another way to go is royalty only, which we just discussed.
It's a great way for a young copywriter to get going. You simply
go in and you say, look, I'm not even going to charge you an
advance because you have no way of knowing how great my
copy's going to be and the fact that it's going to earn out like crazy.
An earn out is – when a publisher pays you in advance on your
royalties, he calculates how many pieces he's going to have to mail

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of that in order to reimburse him for the advance he paid you. So a

lot of packages don't earn out. If you charge a $25,000.00 advance
and a $25.00 a thousand royalty, they're going to have to mail –
what is it, a million pieces –

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: In order to get their money back, right? So a lot of packages don't
earn out, so – and that's particularly a problem with young,
unproven writers, so doing – offering to write for a royalty only is
an excellent way to build your portfolio and to get going.

Bob Bly: Okay, so flat fee, then royalty only, and then you mentioned the
idea of an advance plus royalty. Is that what most people do?

Clayton Makepeace: Most of the people I know work on an advance plus royalty, and
essentially, the advance and the royalty are established in
negotiation between the copywriter and the client and from a
copywriter's standpoint, you're interested in how large this guy's
mailing universe is and what the mailing potential is.

If you hit an out of the park home run for the guy – if you do as
well as his controller or slightly better – then how many pieces is
he capable of mailing, given his mailing universe? The mailing
universe, of course, is the total number of qualified prospects for
the product that you're promoting that appear on mailing lists or e-
mail lists.

So if the mailing universe is gigantic, I generally give my client a

bit of a break on the royalty amount. So, for example, the health
market, where there's 280 million Americans who have physical
bodies and some large percentage of them are fairly interested in
keeping those bodies healthy and have purchased – qualified
themselves by purchasing products from other health companies
and therefore, their names are available to my client to rent and to
mail my package to. That's a huge market and so I'm willing to
take a $30.00 a thousand royalty when I write a package for the
health market.

On the other hand, the investment market – the investment

information market – is substantially smaller and so I require a
$50.00 a thousand royalty to write a package for an investment
information product, a newsletter or a book, something on general
investments.

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If it's on personal finance – again, everyone has money and there

are huge lists at Rodel and Boardroom of people who have
qualified themselves by buying books and newsletters on how to
save money, how to cut your monthly budget, how to save more,
how to get out of debt, how to cut your taxes, those kinds of things.
Then again, the smaller royalty is in order because of the size of
the universe.

Bob Bly: So is the money you get paid up front an advance against royalty
or just a flat fee that's in addition to the royalty?

Clayton Makepeace: I use several different arrangements. Quite often, I use the money
up front as an – I offer for the money up front to be an advance
against the royalty, and I receive half when they reserve my time,
up to two years in advance.

I may only have an opening in 2007, but if they want that opening,
they're going to have to pay me $12,500.00 today, which is half of
the $25,000.00 advance, and then the balance, when I either begin
work, in some cases – that's with clients who know me well –
when I deliver a first draft, in other cases, for people who know me
pretty well, but still have some reservations as to whether I'll
actually deliver copy or not; or on approved final copy, for the
clients that I haven't worked for before and need that assurance that
not only will I deliver the copy, but it will be powerful when I do.

Another arrangement is the fee plus royalty, and that's when you're
getting cocky. That's when you've been around for a while and
you say, look, there's no point in an advance. You know this is
gonna earn out. I've got a fantastic track record. If you're Gary
Bencivenga and writing a financial package – which, thank God,
he's not doing anymore (Laughter) – he was a stiff competitor – or
Jim Rutts in the financial or health areas or me, in the supplement
areas and you ask for a fee plus royalty – so the fee is free and
clear of any future deductions for royalties, so you get to keep the
fee and then beginning with the very first piece mailed, you begin
receiving your royalties.

Bob Bly: Now, you've also mentioned to me that sometimes, you get – you
have a commission that's based – or a fee that's based on a
percentage of not the – it's not based on the number mailed, but it's
based on the actual sales of the product. How does that work?

Clayton Makepeace: Well, on a lot of the projects that you're going to be doing as a
copywriter – well, they fall into two categories. The first category

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are direct mail packages, Internet promotions, and so forth, that are
designed to generate new customers.

So the copy that you're writing is going to be sent out to prospects

that are not currently customers of your client. And those mailings
and Internet promotions are quite often done on a break-even basis.
In other words, the client is willing to continue mailing the copy,
so long as he gets his marketing costs back –

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: From the promotion. And some clients are willing even to lose a
little bit of money.

Bob Bly: Yeah, I can name several.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. So what does that mean? Well, it means that they're going
to be mailing that quantity, right? And it means that they're going
to be – if they're shooting for break-even, it means essentially that
a hundred percent of the revenues that promotion generates are
going to be plowed back into the mail.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: Okay? So you're talking huge quantities. And on deals like that,
you want to tie your royalty to the number of pieces mailed. And
in the old days, we always talked in per thousand; today, a lot of
people talk about cents per piece mailed.

Bob Bly: Right, they'll say – you said $10.00 to $30.00 per thousand, which
is a penny to three pennies a piece.

Clayton Makepeace: Exactly, and for the smaller markets, like the financial market, a
nickel a piece. A few years ago, though, Weiss Research – a great
client of mine, and Martin's a great friend – hired me to do some
promotions to his customer file. Well, he only had 120,000
customers, and it would take me just as long to write the promotion
for his customers as it would to write a promotion to generate new
customers that I knew he was mailing 18 million pieces a year for
– of my packages and paying huge royalties.

Bob Bly: Right, so that promotion going to the customers – if he sends it to

every customer, it's only mailing 120,000 pieces.

Clayton Makepeace: That's right.

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Bob Bly: So even if you're making two or five cents a piece, it's not
significant to you.

Clayton Makepeace: Exactly, and so what I did was, I just – I said to him, hey, Martin,
look at this. You're paying $500.00 per thousand to mail your
direct mail pieces to new customers. My royalty is $50.00 a
thousand, roughly ten percent of the money that promotion will
generate – because he was mailing at break-even. And so I said, I
will be more than happy to write for your house file for ten percent
of the revenue that my promotion generates.

Bob Bly: Gross revenue?

Clayton Makepeace: Of the gross revenue that my promotion generates, that's correct.
Now, in his case, gross revenue and net revenue were very similar,
because he was selling electronically-delivered products.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: He had no printing costs or mailing costs in terms of fulfillment.

So – and no marketing costs, because everything we were writing
were e-mail blasts.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: Things like that. And so I said, you're paying me ten percent of
revenues in the mail. I think you should pay me ten percent of
revenues when I promote on the Internet. And he said yes, and the
rest is history.

Bob Bly: What about – you mentioned to me in conversation something

called an override. How does that work?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, this is not always easy to do and some clients will resist it,
but once you have some winners with a client – I did this with
Weiss and it worked out wonderfully. I went to my client and I
said, look, I'm generating ten, 15, sometimes 20,000 new
customers for you every month, and I'm doing it for a $50.00 a
thousand royalty.

You're then – you're breaking even on those names. Those new

customers are costing you nothing. Then right away, you're
turning around and you're creaming those names. You're mailing
strong electronic promotions to them, offering $5,000.00 trading
services, $10,000.00 trading services, and other very lucrative

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products, and I said, I think I deserve a portion of the revenue that

my customers that I generated for you are bringing you.

And I had the added benefit that Dan Rosenthal and I were kind of
tag-teaming the client at the time, and Dan was doing some new
customer acquisition stuff, I was doing some – Dan was doing
some back-end stuff, and now, Martin wanted me to do some. And
so I said, look, why don't we do this? Let me take over the front
end entirely, okay? I'll get you all your new customers. But then
I’m not gonna stand around while you and Dan make all the money
on the back end. I want an override of five percent on every
purchase the customers I generate for you make, and then I'll be
out of your hair on the back end until you need me, if you want me
to come in, but I won't be hounding you to give me back-end
assignments, because that's where the money is.

And he said, okay. And so for doing absolutely nothing extra,

other than writing the promotions for the front end I was doing
anyway, I collected a nice five percent override on all back end
sales.

Bob Bly: So I get these options. Does the copywriter just – especially if
you're a new copywriter, do you just pick one of these options and
tell the client, this is what I charge, or do you give the client
several choices?

Clayton Makepeace: Well, if I were beginning today, I would probably begin with an
advance plus royalty arrangement, and I would probably start out
offering – or asking on – asking for something in the range of
$15,000.00 advance - $12,000.00 to $15,000.00 advance against a
royalty of $12.00 to $15.00 a thousand. If you want to – and this is
important to understand. If your copy doesn't kick butt, your
royalty costs the client nothing, zero.

There are some clients out there that will say, well, we don't pay
new writers that. Well, that is just specious. The fact of the matter
is that as a new writer, you can go in and you can say, I want a
$50.00 a thousand royalty. And if a client says, well, we don't pay
new writers that, you just say, well, you won't have to pay it if I
don't beat what your experienced writers are doing. If I do, I'm
worth it. If I don't, it costs you nothing. What do you have to lose,
right?

Bob Bly: Interesting point – way to present that.

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Clayton Makepeace: And then a lot of people will say to you – and this was actually
said to me by a good friend, who's a marketing director, the other
day – but new writers aren't consistent, and so we may – we pay
the higher royalties to experienced writers and writers that we have
a track record with because we know we have a higher percent
chance of getting a control when we work with that person.

Again, a totally specious argument, because consistency has

nothing to do with it. The royalty is not paid unless the package
wins. If your package generates a profit or generates a customer at
a – at break-even, your copy is worth exactly the same to that
client as copy that worked not that well or that well written by an
A-level writer.

So negotiating down advances or flat fees because of lack of

consistency or history or track record or experience of a young
writer, that is an arguable point. It's logical. But when someone
tells you that the customer you generate doesn't have the same
value to that company as the customer that Gary Bencivenga or I
or Jim Rutts or Arthur Johnson generate, I'm sorry, that's – he's just
haggling at that point. He's horse-trading and he doesn't believe it,
either.

Bob Bly: Got it. But either way, we just had a questioned e-mailed to us –
you had used the term – you had suggested that you would
approach a large publisher and tell them, hey, you help me finish
this promotion – you copy chief me – and a student e-mailed us
and says, what do you mean by copy chief?

Clayton Makepeace: Okay, a copy chief is simply somebody, either a mentor, an A-

level writer or, in some cases, a marketing director at a client
company, who will, acknowledging that you are a junior writer or
just beginning – or even an experienced writer, but new to this
field – who will agree to work with you to develop the theme, the
headline, the organization of the package, and who will work with
you to make the package successful. He'll critique each draft – we
call it critting. He'll crit each draft. Dan Rosenthal is the most
famous critter in the universe. The guy is brutal. He takes a
sadistic joy in absolutely eviscerating copy. In fact, his e-mail
address is Copy Ogre.

Bob Bly: (Laughter)

Clayton Makepeace: But anyway, a copy chief will take you and take you to a series of
projects. Now, if he's not a client who's doing this – if he's an A-

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level writer or a coach, he'll typically take a portion of the advance

and a portion of the royalty.

Depending on your experience level, that portion could be

substantial, or less. If you're pretty close and he knows that he has
a good chance of earning royalties when he works with you, then
it'll be likely to ask for a lower percentage of the royalty in
advance. If on the other hand, he sees 27 drafts ahead of him and
even then, a so-so chance of getting a royalty out of it – then he'll
want more.

Bob Bly: So what's the best way for someone who is a – fairly much of a
beginner and doesn't have a big track record and hasn't written a lot
of promotions – let's say you wanted to go over the newsletter field
and you haven't worked for a newsletter publisher before. As your
best bet, if I could do one thing, is it to go find an A-level writer
and apprentice to him? Or is it to do as you said and write a – pick
a product from a major publisher, write a package, and show it to
them – like show Ed Elliott a promotion for one of his
supplements.

Clayton Makepeace: I really think it's kind of all of the above. It's like deep sea fishing.
You've got to have a lot of lines in the water. In the Total Package
– actually, I think it was the landing page for this teleconference –
I talked about the six-step program I used to recruit new clients
back in the very late '70s and very early '80s, when I first went out
and began freelancing.

And that worked like a charm in that it not only got me

assignments, it got my name out there and I was able to get
samples out, so I had that going on.

At the same time, I was calling publishers I wanted to work for and
insulting their packages and challenging them to let me beat them,
as we discussed earlier, with Johnny Johnson at Research
Publications. And at the same time, I was taking assignments from
clients I really didn't want and that were a pain in the neck, but it
gave me a sample to show.

Bob Bly: So how important is it at the beginning to get samples? Is that

more important than the money you make, for the first six months
or year?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, it depends on where you are in the process, really, but
samples are at least as expensive – I mean, as valuable – as the
money in the early going. Obviously, you can't eat samples and if,

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like me, you're trying to support a wife and a couple of kids and
the world's dumbest Cocker Spaniel while trying to get your
business going, you obviously need the income as well. But
samples are money in the bank. They're absolute money in the
bank, and the more that you can put in your portfolio. And again,
at first, I had samples where I did a promotion for a point-of-use
water heater.

Bob Bly: Mm-hmm.

Clayton Makepeace: The kind of water heater they put in hot tubs.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: I had – and airplanes. I had one for a shop that sold exotic desserts
in Beverly Hills and – all kinds of dumb stuff. I had some
fundraising samples that I had done to raise funds for Proposition
13 in California. And so I showed those to my newsletter clients
and –

Bob Bly: Did they respond to that, or did they say –

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah look, anybody who does direct marketing can look
at copy and know whether it's hot copy or not. They'll read it and
they'll know intuitively, this makes me want to buy, this makes me
excited about the product, I can see this person writing for my
newsletter and doing a bang-up job.

Bob Bly: I think that's a major point and I want to just emphasize it. So
you're saying that you can impress, let's say – let's just take
newsletters as an example – you can impress a major publisher of
newsletters with really good copy, even if that copy is not selling
newsletters?

Clayton Makepeace: Absolutely. Absolutely. Young copywriters send me their

samples all the time, and I can literally spend 30 seconds scanning
a sample and know right where this person is and exactly how
much work it would take on my part to get a finished package out
of him that will be a winner – him or her. (Laughter). Because I
did this with two ladies very recently. And I don't c are if it's about
tapes or records or lawnmowers or vitamin supplements – it
doesn't matter.

Either the – if the person has a handle on the dominant

and emotion of their market, if they're speaking to the benefits in
an exciting, compelling way, and if they're making, not ordering –

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I feel like the dumbest thing I could do then – this is somebody that
I want to be in business with. And so absolutely, I would take
every assignment I could get. I would make up assignments if I
couldn't get them.

But it's a stepping stone process at first, to some degree. Every

once in a while, you're going to hit – like with the six-step program
that I outlined in the Total Package Landing Page – every once in
a while, somebody will say, you know what? I do think you can
do this and here's what we pay. Is that okay with you? And let's
do one together and see what happens. And the more lines you
have in the water, the more likely that is to happen for you.

Clayton Makepeace: Sooner or later, we'll cover everything in the Total Package, but I
think the people who were kind enough to pay to attend this call
should be the ones that get the benefit of those answers.

Bob Bly: Well, let's get to one of those questions that just came in, because it
was about what we were discussing. Are royalties based on the
number of pieces mailed, or on the response to the mailing?

Clayton Makepeace: Okay, the response to the mailing determines the number of pieces
mailed.

Bob Bly: Right, because if it doesn't do well, they're not going to keep
mailing it.

Clayton Makepeace: That's right. Clients – as I mentioned earlier, a client has basically
a red line – his boss or his accounting department has told him that
you're – and by him, I mean him or her, the marketing manager –
has given that marketing manager an objective and the objective
might be, for example, I want new customers for free, which
means when I do my promotion, I want all of the money I spent on
that promotion back and I want a new customer, right?

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: And so that means that that marketing manager can mail – just in
the – mail every mailing list out there that will come in at break-
even or factors mailing, so he mails some losers, too, but the
overall effect of the mailing is return on investment is 100 percent
– he gets 100 percent of his money back.

And then others will get more aggressive, right, and say we'll lose
a little bit of money because we have this great back-end program
we're going to be selling, so we don't mind coming in at 80 percent

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or 90 percent, because we know in the first 60 days, we'll recover

that money and then that client's with us seven years and he's going
to spend money like crazy. So they have a different criteria.

Still others – and these are the ones I don't understand – they say,
we want to make money on every new client. And those are the
ones you've gotta be careful about, because if a guy tells you that
he wants to make a profit on every client – he wants a return on
investment for the mailing of 120 percent or 140 percent – then
that means you can mail a lot fewer pieces.

So the relationship between response and promotion size is a direct

relationship and the larger – the higher the response or the – let's
say, for example, a guy's mission in life is to break even on new
customers, and he mails your package and it pulls a 300 or 400
percent return on investment on test lists. Most clients will test the
better files – the better outside files on a new package – to lower
their risk of losing money when they test new packages.

And let's say you pull 400 percent on his best outside files. Well,
then, he goes back to his office and sits down with his mailing list
history and he looks at how every other list he's ever mailed
indexes against the list that he just tested your package to and he
immediately knows how many million pieces of that package he
can mail, right?

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: So your response percentage determines mail size and so you're
being rewarded for the effect that your package –

Bob Bly: Right, but the royalty itself is actually based on the mail size – the
number of pieces mailed?

Clayton Makepeace:

Bob Bly: As you would put it, it's $10.00, $20.00, $30.00, $50.00, per
thousand pieces mailed.

Clayton Makepeace: That's right.

Bob Bly: Or a penny to a nickel per piece.

Clayton Makepeace: It's to chance. You've got – the response rate you
produced determines the size of the mailing and your royalty is

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connected to the size of the mailing, either per piece mailed or on a

per thousand basis, and so that's how it works.

Bob Bly: Now, in our original promotion for this conference, we had a bullet
point that I don't think we've answered yet. The bullet – and you
wrote it, actually – was how being a direct response bully can
make you rich.

Clayton Makepeace: (Laughter)

Bob Bly: So who's the bully? I suspect it's you.

Clayton Makepeace: (Laughter) Yeah. Well, actually, that was kind of a flowery way
of discussing something we have talked about, and that's looking –
one of the best things you can do as a copywriter – and it's not easy
for people who are starting out, because money's tight – but get on
the mailing list of the competitors of the companies that you want
to work for. If you want to work, for example, in the financial
publishing industry, cough up the bucks and take a one-year
subscription to one of the newsletters offered by each of the major
players.

Bob Bly: And it doesn't cost a lot, because each of them has a front-end
newsletter that's only $49.00 a year or so.

Clayton Makepeace: Right. Some of them are as high as $99.00.

Bob Bly: Yeah, but that's it.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, that's it. And you get on those lists and then what happens
is, every time that list is rented to a competitor, every time Agora –
say you subscribe to –

Bob Bly: Oxford Club.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, or Oxford Club or Strategic Investing over at Agora – well,
next month, within 30 days, you're gonna get a promotion from
Phillips because Agora rents their list to Phillips. And you're
going to start seeing all of the promotion pieces that Phillips does
for their products. You're going to see the promotion pieces that
everybody Agora rents that list to do for their products.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: Your mailbox is gonna start filling up. And you're gonna be
disappointed on days you go to the mailbox and there's nothing

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there. I mean, it almost never happens. You'll be getting a lot of

mail. And so that gives you an opportunity to see everyone's
promotion pieces out there. And not just their controls, you'll be
seeing test panels, as well.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: Keep that in mind when you're looking at these things, because
you may look at something and say, man, this thing really stinks. I
can beat the living daylights out of it. When you call them up and
tell them that, they may say, yeah, I know, that was a test, it
bombed. So be prepared for that.

But look through those packages and then be a bully. Pick the
wimpiest kid on the block – the one that you're sure you can whip
in a New York minute – and approach the client with that and say,
what were you thinking? Explain to him why you can beat it.

And I'll tell you, it's amazing. One of my major clients sent me
two promotion pieces that they had mailed over – within the last
year and it hadn't worked and asked me to critique them and tell
them why I thought they didn't work. And I spent maybe a half
hour just going through these pieces and looking at them. And
they were copy chiefed by strong, creative people internally and
they missed the mark at almost every level. And I'm not going to
say which client that was, but it knocked my socks off because I
have very, very high respect for the people who copy chiefed and
supervised the production of this package.

So just because a company is huge and just because they're mailing

something doesn't mean it's great and doesn’t mean it's working
well. So go ahead and be a bully. Pick on the weakest packages
out there and then go – and come up with a plan on how you would
beat it – and then go to the group publisher or the marketing
director at that company and strike up a conversation about it.
That's worked very well for me many times in the past.

Bob Bly: Great advice. Another question that just came out that says, how
do we go about finding the client companies that use and need
copywriters? And I think you have kind of answered that just now,
didn't you?

Clayton Makepeace: Well, there are several ways, actually.

Bob Bly: Right.

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Clayton Makepeace: But I tell you what – I found, first of all, that niche writers make
the most money. It's like a cardiologist makes more money –

Bob Bly: Specialists.

Clayton Makepeace: Yes, right. A cardiologist makes more money than a general
practitioner.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: Right? And in copywriting, it's really the same thing. If you have
a specialty in financial writing, a lot goes with that. I mean, you
don't have to just be a good copywriter, you need to know the
difference between a mutual fund and an exchange-traded fund.
You need to know what price earnings ratios and price book ratios
are. You need to know about why the market goes up, why it goes
down. You need to know about economic trends. There's a lot of
specialized knowledge that goes into that.

And the same is true in the health area. You don't have to
necessarily know about which alternative remedies work the best,
because the editor will tell you that. But when he starts talking
about an embolism, you need to know what that is.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: And when he starts talking about a cardiac infarction, you need to
know he means heart attack. So there's a lot that goes into
becoming a specialist in each of these fields.

Bob Bly: But to answer this question specifically of where do you find the
clients, let me give several suggestions, see if you agree. First of
all, there are directories that cover the direct marketing industry
and there's one called the Directory of Major Mailers, which is a
massive book that lists almost every company that does direct
marketing in any volume.

I believe it's available – if you search Directory of Major Mailers

on the Internet, you can get it online and you can purchase it on
CD or in paper, and that'll give you thousands of companies and
you can find out exactly what they sell and what they mail and
how many packages.

Clayton Makepeace: Absolutely. I'm looking at it now. It's at Target Marketing Group
and it's – you can go to [Link] –
[Link]. The book's about three inches thick and

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not only does it tell you who the major mailers are, but it tells you
what they're mailing.

Bob Bly: And notice, folks, Clayton doesn't need clients – just the opposite –
and he owns the Directory of Major Mailers.

Clayton Makepeace: Well, actually, I want to offer this to Total Package subscribers,
which is why I bought it.

Bob Bly: Okay.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah.

Bob Bly: Well, that's cool. And then if you're interested, for example, in
newsletter publishers, you can search [Link] and
that's the website of NEPA, which is the major trade association
for business and consumer newsletter publishers. So those are two
sources you can use.

Clayton Makepeace: Right. Also the Direct Marketing Association.

Bob Bly: The DMA.

Clayton Makepeace: Right. You have – I'm not that familiar with their stuff. I haven't
looked at it in a long time because I haven't been beating the
bushes for a long time, but they do conferences and they quite
often have directories of exhibitors and I'm sure they also have a
directory of members.

Bob Bly: Right, and if you have a local chapter of the Direct Marketing
Association, you join that local chapter. It's a great way to
network and usually, when you join a local chapter, they give you
the membership directory, which will typically have 100 or 200
potential clients with all their information listed.

Clayton Makepeace: Right. But getting back to what I was saying, as you go through
this, it would be one thing – this Directory of Major Mailers, for
example, goes to – lists just about everybody out there. I would
just suggest that you pick a niche, educate yourself in it, and focus
on those niches.

Bob Bly: Definitely. Look at what's mailed to you, and what turns you on.
Like Clayton is very into financial and supplements and some
people are interested in commodities trading and options trading.
The more you – I've always found this to be true, too. Specialists

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have an easier time getting work and are paid more than
generalists.

Clayton Makepeace: Absolutely. Arthur Johnson got started really at Franklin Minn,
selling collectibles, and that was his first experience and he really
made a name for himself in that field.

Bob Bly: That is a big niche, collectibles.

Clayton Makepeace: Eric Beutual, who's one of the all-time great writers. He's in the
pantheon – he's in the Hall of Fame of the four or five best writers
of all time. He writes soft offer – his specialty – he writes
everything, but his specialty, what he almost never misses at, is a
soft offer one-shot book promotion. And he's produced many of
the biggest winners that Rodel and Boardroom has ever put out.
So –

Bob Bly: So, you see, you can really specialize even deeper. Not just books,
but soft offer, one-shot book promotions.

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: We're just about out of time. We have two minutes, so I want to
ask one last question and then we can head toward wrapping up.
In the promotion we sent out, you also mentioned the number-one
blunder new copywriters make that turns clients off like crazy
every time.

Clayton Makepeace: (Laughter)

Bob Bly: What is that?

Clayton Makepeace: Being too available. I saw a promotion - it was an ad that ran in – I
think it was DM News.

Bob Bly: We talked about this. We should not mention the person's name.

Clayton Makepeace: No, we won't. And the ad basically was a copywriter promoting
himself. And when you promote yourself like that, broadly, what –
you're sending a message that basically, you're available, and
clients are kind of like – Rodney Dangerfield once said that I
wouldn't – why would I join any club that would accept me as a
member?

Bob Bly: Right.

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Clayton Makepeace: Well, clients have the same question in their minds. They're
saying, why would I hire any copywriter who has immediate time
in his schedule? And so you have to have a reason why you're
soliciting business now.

And one of the things that I always did – when I was trying to fill
my schedule and I wanted to get some advances in to pay the bills
and to get some booking – is I would contact clients and say, look,
I fill my schedule just twice a year, and I'm booked for the next six
months or three months or whatever the time period is, but I'm
booking my schedule up for the first six months of next year. I'm
sending this letter to seven or nine or 12 or whatever it was other
clients that I work with and the slots are going first-come, first-
served. So you – in other words, you have to have a rationale –

Bob Bly: There has to be a reason.

Clayton Makepeace: There has to be a reason why – you don't want to be the ugliest girl
at the dance. You want to be the one that everybody has to hustle
to get on your dance card.

Bob Bly: The late Howard Shenson called this the busy doctors' syndrome.
He said clients always want to deal with those who feel busy and
successful, not those who seem to be desperate and need the work.

Clayton Makepeace: Exactly.

Bob Bly: We're out of time, but it's – my one distress is that I think we could
have gone on another two or three hours. Will we do more of
these with you? What's gonna be our opportunity? I feel like we
didn't finish, like we're just scratching the surface.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, I think so, too, and I've got like 21 more things I wanted to
cover on this call, plus we have all of the questions. Bob, if you'd
be willing to do it, I'd like to start doing this on a regular basis.

Bob Bly: Okay. Why don't we talk about that and then whatever we decide,
we can send out an e-mail to the people here and to the people who
get the Total Package and let's do that. Let's do a series of calls so
we can get into a lot of this in much more detail.

Clayton Makepeace: I would like to do that.

Bob Bly: I'm thinking three or four calls would be good.

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Clayton Makepeace: Oh, absolutely. And one other thing I'd like to ask the group, guys,
I know what I am doing when it comes to writing copy, but I –
when it comes to being a coach in print, I'm an absolute neophyte.
And so I would deeply appreciate it if you would take the trouble
in the next day or two to click on the feedback button at the bottom
of the Total Package e-zine where it says, comments or article
idea. That will bring up an e-mail form addressed to
feedback@[Link]. And let us know how we
did on this call. If there were things that we didn't cover you
would have liked us to, let us know that, because we'll certainly
consider those things for future calls.

Also, just kind of give us a feeling of how we're doing and any
suggestions that you would have for us as to how we might
improve. You'd be doing me a great service. I'd appreciate it.

Bob Bly: Great. Well, Clayton, I thought it was very valuable. I learned a
lot. In other words, from my vantage point, I’m just a six-figure
copywriter, so anytime I can learn from a seven-figure, I'm happy
as a clam.

Clayton Makepeace: (Laughter)

Bob Bly: Julie, I want to thank you for making all this happen.

Julie McManus: Thanks. No problem. Actually, I did want to say, as I am

monitoring the questions that have come through, people seem
really pleased.

Bob Bly: Good. So let's talk about – offline – what we can do to continue
and answer everyone's questions, because I think there's a lot of
unanswered questions and Clayton, you have a list of 21 things that
you want to talk about, and I have a list of ten, 15 things I want to
ask you.

Clayton Makepeace: Great.

Bob Bly: All right.

Clayton Makepeace: All right, thank you.

Bob Bly: Thanks, guys.

Clayton Makepeace: Thank you, everybody, for being on this –

Bob Bly: Yeah. Bye-bye.

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Response Ink 09142005 Page 28 of 28
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Julie McManus

Clayton Makepeace: Bye-bye.

[End of Audio]

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