Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 1 of 35

Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Bob Bly: Welcome to the second of five calls in the Clayton Makepeace
“Make Money as a Copywriter” teleconference series. My name is
Bob Bly. And with me are Wendy Makepeace –

Wendy Makepeace: Hello there.

Bob Bly: And Clayton Makepeace.

Clayton Makepeace: Hi.

Wendy Makepeace: Otherwise known as the redhead.

Bob Bly: Otherwise known as the redhead. Now this call is lengthened. We
were scheduled to do an hour. And we have lengthened it to 90
minutes. Now we did that because last week we thought we were
really running behind. But as it turns out, we were really on track.

I thought we were behind from call number one, which was the
subject, “How to Get Every Penny You’re Worth.” But we
actually covered everything. We talked about the reasons why all
of us deserve the same royalties the big copywriters get. We
talked about the way to become a power player, and the client
relationship. Win/win compensation arrangements for every kind
of work you do. How to make the client more profitable for you.
How to make each client more profitable for you by writing more
for them, and other secrets. We talked about contracts and detail,
including landmines to avoid in freelance writing/copywriting
contracts, and how to collect every penny of the royalties due you.

The second call, which is today – the subject is “How to Keep

Your Clients Coming Back to You Over and Over Again,
Forever.” And on this call, we’ll be focusing on the care and
feeding of your clients, customer service, client service. How to
keep your clients coming back to you over and over again with big
advance checks in hand, ready to hire you to write more copy.

Now the items we’re gonna cover on today’s call are as follows:
first, what happens when you get a job for a client, and your
package doesn’t work. Because sometimes they don’t. Can you
get hired again? We’ll talk about that. What clients say to you
behind your back, and how to turn even the difficult clients into
nice, friendly, easy to work with clients. Common blunders that
get copywriters fired, and how to avoid them. How to keep a
client in the revision process from destroying your copy. The kind
of critiques or crits you’re gonna see, and how to handle them.
How to instantly end any copywriting argument, and keep your

[Link] Page 1 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 2 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

strongest copy intact. And times when you should demand your
kill fee, kiss the client goodbye, and move on to greener pastures.
And that’s what we’re gonna cover in call number two. So we’re
really not behind. But we’ll use the time.

We’re gonna start off with those items. I’m gonna ask Clayton to
start, and give us what’s on that menu. And we’re gonna go
through it and cover everything. And then in the extra time
remaining, especially since we’ve budgeted an extra half hour,
we’re gonna get to some of those great questions that you had
emailed us last week, that we were not yet able to get to. Clayton,
does that sound like a fair way to proceed?

Clayton Makepeace: Sounds good to me.

Bob Bly: Alright, so let me ask you – the first one really intrigued me. I get
this question all the time from beginning copywriters. And next to
you, I probably get approached and asked questions by beginning
copywriters, I think, more than anyone else who’s around. And the
common one is, “What happened? You keep saying when you
have the control, the client will love you. What happens when I
get hired to write a package, and I write a package that either
doesn’t beat the control, or worse, it’s a bomb?” I had a couple
who said, “I wrote a package and hardly got any orders.” Then
you’re dead. Right? Then you’re destroyed that that client will
never hire you again. Isn’t that right?

Clayton Makepeace: Not really. If you’re working with a company that has any
experience in direct mail especially, you’re going to find that
they’re not that demanding. They’re not going to try you once, and
then can you. Every good marketing director knows that there are
a lot of reasons why even brilliant copy fails.

And they have a long experience working with people like you and
me, and Gary Bencivenga, and Jim Rutz. And they know that even
A-level writers don’t hit ‘em out of the park on every try. So if
they like your copy, if they feel it has visceral appeal, it’s very
likely that they’ll want to come back to you.

Just off the top of my head, there are six or seven different reasons
that nothing to do with your talent as a writer, or the power of your
copy, that could be behind a less than satisfactory result, especially
in the publishing industry. But also in other industries that you’ll
write for. The main theme of your package, for example, is a key.
You may decide, for example, if you’re writing a financial
package, that the biggest news today is rising energy prices. You

[Link] Page 2 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 3 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

may focus the main headline in the opening and the main theme of
your package on rising energy prices. But between the time you
write the copy, and the time it gets in the mail, which can quite
often be months, there may be another theme that comes up, that
investors are far more interested in.

And perhaps a competitor or someone else has written on that.

And so as a result, your copy doesn’t become the new control.
Even in writing for non-publishing clients, you may choose a
particular benefit that resonates best with you, and make that the
main theme of your copy. But you may find out by mailing, that
that theme doesn’t resonate as well with your market as a theme
that somebody else has used. So the main theme is a key.

I’m hired, a lot of times, to launch new products. The client wants
to give the product the very best chance of making it. And so he
goes to writers that have a good track record with him. But
launches are low percentage deals. Well actually, they can be a
grand slam, or they can be a strikeout just as easily. And so quite
often if it’s a launch product, the first time it’s been promoted, it
may just be that the product itself doesn’t resonate with the
marketplace.

I’ve had situations where we had an editor of a newsletter, for

example, who was a little odd looking. And we did our launch as
we normally would for his product, and had his picture on the front
of the magalog, and it didn’t work very well. And so we went
back and retested some headlines. And we retested a design
without a photograph of the editor of the product, and we got the
control we were looking for. So the product could be one of the
things.

Another is the offer. Whenever you’re making an offer in one of

these promotions, you quite often will have free gifts that you give
away. Perhaps the free gift that you chose, the premiums that you
chose to offer, don’t have the same appeal to the market as the
premiums another writer may have chosen. And in some cases,
you have no choice in that matter. Many times, you’re told which
free gifts you’re going to give away.

Another problem that I run into quite often, these days especially,
is compliance, both in the health and the financial industries, which
are the areas that I work in most. The level of compliance or – let
me make that clearer. There are regulatory agencies that are – and
the next issue of TTP is on this, by the way. And there’s some

[Link] Page 3 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 4 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

good stuff in there for you. If you’re a beginning writer, and you
want to understand legal issues, it’s our scary Halloween issue.

But in all industries, the Federal Trade Commission regulates what

can be said, and what can’t be said in sales copy. And then in
individual industries, there are also other regulatory bodies that
rule on what you can say and what you can’t say. In the financial
areas, it’s the Securities and Exchange Commission, the
Commodities Futures Trading Commission, and also the National
Association of Securities Dealers.

In the health areas, it’s the Food and Drug Administration. And so
each client implements those regulations at a different level, and
finds different regulations within those bodies of regulations to be
more important than others. And if there’s been a change in how
the client enforces compliance on its copy, or if you’ve chosen a
theme that requires stricter compliance measures than one your
competitor has chosen, you could wind up with weaker copy, and
therefore, not win.

And I just had a situation that was legally related. It had to do with
regulatory compliance. But I wrote what I thought was kick-butt
copy for a package on the dangers of prescription drugs. And
everybody was very excited about the copy. And it led right off
with the Vioxx scandal, and the fact that as many as 140,000
people have had heart attacks after taking Vioxx for pain relief.
And the attorneys killed all mention of any drug in the package.

Bob Bly: You mean you actually can’t use the name Vioxx?

Clayton Makepeace: In this case I couldn’t, because the client was concerned about
liability with Merck.

Bob Bly: With Merck.

Clayton Makepeace: Actually I nailed Pfizer too. Because I had Vioxx, Celebrex, and
Bextra all in there. And so the client’s own legal parameters can
be a limitation, and they can be more of a limitation on your
package if you choose a theme that flirts with those limitations,
than on the control, or a package somebody else writes.

Bob Bly: Now I have to stop and ask you. The immediate thought that
comes into our minds is: you are Clayton Makepeace. Did you just
say to the client, “Look, you’re at risk. You gotta comply,” or did
you say, “Hey, you’re making a dumb mistake?” Did you argue at
all?

[Link] Page 4 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 5 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Clayton Makepeace: When you’re not talking to the lawyer, arguing is fruitless. It’s
pointless. Because the lawyer’s basically saying, “Look. You
know the copywriter’s probably right about this. But the fact is if
you mail this, we could find ourselves in a lawsuit that’ll cost us
hundreds of thousands of dollars.”

And so at that point, unless you’re best friends with the president
of the company, compliance with both liability measures, and also
with regulatory measures – that is a business decision. There’s no
such thing as a totally sanitized sales message. Any regulator can
nail you at any time, for any reason. Any consumer can sue you at
any time, for any reason. And so it’s not a black and white thing.

So each business owner has to make his own call on where along
the line of compliance or legal hiding under the bed he’s going to
do. And they have established those parameters long before you
came to the scene, so usually arguing that is worthless.

However, you have two choices at that point. You can go into the
package, and you can say, “Look, if I can’t name these drugs – that
was the theme of the whole package. I’m gonna get killed in the
mail if I stick with this theme, but can’t name the drugs.
Therefore, let me rewrite the front end of the package in a different
theme.” Or you can say, as I did in this case, “Vioxx is enough in
the news right now that I can go ahead with this package, and say,
‘The arthritis drugs that they gave you could triple your risk of a
heart attack.’” And go that way. So in that case, that’s what I did.

Bob Bly: So a package might not work because they’re too compliant. They
are interpreting the compliance regulations very strictly, and
following them. Or the offer doesn’t work. Like the premiums.
Or the product in a launch is a new product, and the market doesn’t
want that product. Or you picked the wrong theme. Like say for a
financial package, you picked inflation, and oil does better. What
are the other –? That’s four reasons why a package wouldn’t
work. What are the others you had?

Clayton Makepeace: Well for new mailers, the list selects, the media he uses, the people
he sends the sales message to, whether it’s direct mail, or print, or
internet, or wherever. He may not have accurately targeted his
market.

I’m in a situation right now where I have a package that I just

created for a health company. And I hired Carline to write the
package. Carline is Afro-American. She came back after reading

[Link] Page 5 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 6 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

the research, and gave me a package that said, basically, the darker
your skin, the more at risk you are for heart disease. Because that
really resonated with her, and she felt that we could get a five
percent response from anybody from the ________ people on our
files.

I, on the other hand, felt like I wanted a broader appeal. So I took

her copy, and we’re gonna mail it. But we’re gonna test it against
another version, where we focus on heart disease, up front,
something that everybody’s concerned about. Now when we test
those two packages – I went to the client, and I said, “On Carline’s
sale, and also for a small part of my sale, I want you to be sure to
include some ethnic lists.”

Rodale has some great lists on health for Afro-Americans, for

example. And I suggest that they include a component of that in
both panels, so we can actually measure what kind of lift Carline
gets when she’s talking to ethnic minorities. And I think that’s a
key there. The list selects or the media you’re going to, need to be
right for the message.

Another thing that has nailed me time after time, again, is just
timing. If you’re in the mail with a package about how inflation –
as I was back in 1979 – if you’re in the mail with a package that
talks about how inflation is going to go through the roof, and every
dollar you have is only gonna be worth a penny, and all of that
kind of thing, and then Ronald Reagan gets elected president, and
you go into the mail, you’re gonna get killed. Because your
constituents, the people that you’re talking to, feel like they’ve just
solved the inflation problem.

We saw 9/11 kill direct mail response. The beginning of the wars
in Iraq and Kuwait killed response. The O.J. Simpson trial killed
response. People were watching their televisions, instead of
reading the mail. And so any world event of any consequence can
kill response to a mail package.

And then finally, you don’t know what else is gonna be in the
mailbox, or what other people are gonna be reading when your
package arrives. And so if a competitor, another company, is
mailing a package on the same theme, or another company has
come up with another theme, another headline concept that’s
extremely strong, and your package and their package arrives the
same day, you may find that your response is less than you’d
hoped. So that’s just seven things, very quickly, that major mailers
know affect response.

[Link] Page 6 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 7 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

And so another one might be the graphic design of the piece. They
say that people who love sausage or direct mail should never see
either one being created. The direct mail stuff that we do, whether
it’s copy or design, is a messy process. It’s a creative process.
And it’s very hard to get a consistent product out of graphic
designers, especially. And I’ve seen situations where changing the
design of a package increased response 20 to 30%.

So you’re not the only one here involved in this. The list broker.
The manager of the media plans. The graphic designer. The guy
who designed the product himself, or the editor. All these people
have input into the success or failure of a promotion.

Bob Bly: So you’re saying you believe that a sophisticated client knows this.
And therefore, if they liked your package, but it doesn’t work, and
they feel that one of these factors could have made that, they will
try you again?

Clayton Makepeace: All of the things being equal, yes. So long as the relationship was
good. So long as you were responsive. And some of the things
will get to in a minute. So long as you handled the client in a
professional way. So long as they felt your copy was strong,
you’re not going to be axed just for that.

Bob Bly: Well let’s talk about that. Because you often hear some people
say, “If you can write a winner, the world is your oyster. And
nothing else matters if you write killers.” But you’re hinting that
you can write winners, but if there’s other problems, like you’re a
great copywriter, but you’re kind of a jackass to people, they’re not
as eager to hire you. Does it matter how – the customer service
aspect of it? Or is it just what you write?

Clayton Makepeace: No, no. It’s everything I’ve said about these people – their lives
rising and falling on finding good writers is absolutely true.
However, there is a line that they won’t go over. I could name one
guy right now – and their others – who’s an excellent writer, and
was kicked out, control after control, for 30 years now. But
nobody wants to hire him, because he’s so hard to work with.

One of the things I think you’ll find as you meet top copywriters is
when you meet top freelancers, they’re invariably nice people. If
you’ve ever talked to Gary Bencivenga, he’s unassuming, nice,
wants to help you, just one of the kindest people you’ll ever meet.
The same is true with Jim Rutz.

[Link] Page 7 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 8 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

I like to think that I’m fairly open and helpful with the information
and advice I give. The ones who have risen to the top of the field
are not egotistical, my way or the highway kind of people. They’re
the kind of people that will work with you, and be a very helpful
part of the team, rather than somebody that says, “Look, you either
mail this or forget it.” You know?

Now the guy I was thinking about, his copy is legendary. But he
hasn’t been able to build a freelance copywriting business of any
consequence, because he’s so hard to work with. As a result, he’s
making millions developing and selling his own products. So no
harm, no foul as far as he’s concerned. But the clients that all of us
are looking for, just will not work with him.

Bob Bly: So if you’re difficult with a client, is it a multiple effect? Will

they keep it to themselves? Do these guys talk to each other?

Clayton Makepeace: Oh, they talk to each other all the time. In our business especially,
Bob, as you know, it’s very incestuous. They have something
called The Publisher’s Roundtable. They actually go to some city
in Europe or the United States once a year, and hang out together
for three or four days, and share notes on copywriters. And the
marketing managers call each other up on the phone and ask them
about lists that are working, and compare notes on copywriters.

So people are talking all the time. And because copywriters are a
key part of this equation, we tend to be a topic of conversation.
And again, this isn’t just in the health and financial publishing
area, or just in the vitamin sales area. You get involved in
anything else, any other niche, whether it be catalogues, even a
niche in a niche – you know, a particular kind of catalog marketing
– or anything else that you’re doing, there is an industry. There is
an association. And these people talk to each other. And plus if
they’re smart, they’re selling each other’s products too. So word
will get around.

Bob Bly: So if I’m working with a finite group of clients, and they’re talking
about me behind my back, what are the things that I can do to
make them, when they talk about me, say nice things, other than
write winning copy?

Clayton Makepeace: Well this is one of the things that we promised to discuss on this
call. I’d say the first thing is it’s essential that you be prepared.
The minute that you get a signed contract, the next thing that’s
going to happen is that the client is gonna want to have a
conference call with you, or perhaps in some cases, a live meeting

[Link] Page 8 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 9 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

with you, and with other key people on their team. It could be the
person who invented the product. It could be the editor of the
newsletter. It could be the formula for the vitamin.

And then also, the marketing people who’ve been involved with
the product. And these people can be solid gold for you, if you
know how to listen to what they say. Because they’ve been
involved, or at least have access to hundreds of tests over the years,
where they’ve tested one kind of headline against another, one
kind of design against another, one kind of theme against another.

And these people are gonna be solid gold to you if you know how
to listen to them. A lot of them will not say, “We tested x, y, z
back in such and such a year, and these are the results.” But what
they’ll say is something much vaguer. But they’re trying to tell
you, “Look, we tried this. We know how well it works.” Okay?

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: And so those people are key. But anyway, so after you’ve signed
the contract, you’re going to have this meeting. It’s very important
that you be prepared for that meeting, that you are very familiar
with the product, that you’re very familiar with the promotions that
they’ve used in the recent past, and that you have some grasp, or
handle, on what their competitors are using right now to promote
their products.

And so in preparation for that meeting, I usually ask for, in the

newsletter area, a year of back issues, copies of the free gifts that
they give away with the sale of the newsletter. And I ask for a
biography on the editor. If it’s a three-dimensional product, or a
supplement, I ask for research on the supplement, so I can take a
look at what it contains, what it does, and how competitors are
selling a similar supplement.

There’s a two-fold benefit to that. The first part of the benefit is

you’re gonna know what you’re talking about when you have that
launch meeting. The second one is that the people who you’re
working with will be impressed with your professionalism.
They’ll be put at ease. They’ll say, “Wow, this guy seems to really
know what he’s doing.” So I think that’s very important.

Following along the same lines, the second thing to do is at the

meeting, as you’re brainstorming, the question will always come
up – “What do you need to write this package?” And I think it’s

[Link] Page 9 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 10 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

really important to know what you’re going to ask for, because

again, that reflects on your professionalism.

I always ask for other promo copy they’ve used, both successful
and unsuccessful, and for them to tell me which is which. I can
usually guess, but not always. So I want to know that. And it’s the
surprises that can really give you a leg up, when you see something
and you say, “Wow, this really stinks.” And then you find out that
was a big winner for them. Then that’s a clue. That’s a clue right
there that you need to go farther than your own gut instinct on the
product.

Bob Bly: Let me stop you and ask you something that I’m asked all the time.
Let’s say you’re doing this, and the client gives you a bunch of
promotions for this product. And you notice that all the winners
are kind of promotional looking jumbos, 9 x 12 envelopes.

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: And all the losers are #10 letter packages, magalogs, and tabloids.
They all lost.

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: Would you be smarter to again, try something different than all
their winning packages, which are all the same? They were all
jumbos. Or would you be better staying in that format?

Clayton Makepeace: That’s a great question. That’s something that comes up at the
beginning of this process every single time. I used to struggle with
it tremendously. What do I do here? Do I do a 6 x 9? Do I do a
#10? Do I do a tabloid or a magalog? My philosophy now is go
with what’s working on your first outing. If the winner is a
tabloid, then go with a tabloid.

What you’re counting on is that the power of your copy is going to

be stronger than the power of the other guy’s copy. And so if you
introduce another variable into the mix, if he’s doing an 8 ½ x 11
special report style format piece that’s 24 pages long, and you
write a 24-page tabloid, well you’ve just introduced a new variable
that’s to your detriment, because that tabloid cost more to mail.

So that means you have to get a higher response to break even, and
that puts you at a disadvantage. So I tend to emulate what’s
working now. And soon as I get a control on a product, I

[Link] Page 10 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 11 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

immediately look at the format, and see if there are ways to save
money on it.

I just had this experience with Boardroomer. I wrote a promotion

for one of their books. Arthur Johnson, who’s a great writer, has
their control. Arthur’s control was a tabloid-sized 16-pager. My
copy that was challenging his control was a 24-page package. I
pulled a higher response rate and a higher closing rate than Arthur
did. But my piece cost more. So his remained the control.

So then I had to go back and pare my copy down, so that I could

get my cost down to where Arthur’s was. Now at that level, so
long as I haven’t hurt my response rate – and I don’t think I have –
I’ll probably knock off Arthur’s control. I didn’t learn the lesson
on that. Had I learned my lesson and not been so cocky, I would
have looked at Arthur’s thing, and I would have said, “Look man,
this guy’s got a 16-page tabloid-size control. That’s what I’m
gonna write. And I’m just gonna make sure that I do everything I
can possibly do to make my copy stronger than his.” I think that’s
a much smarter choice.

And I’m famous for going back then, after the control is
established, and slicing and dicing the copy in different ways to
turn it into a bookalog, a 6 x 9, another format. So I’m taking my
risk with something that’s already proven.

Bob Bly: But to do this thing, you’ve got to know what to ask the client for.
In other words, you should ask them for what they would expect
any competent and qualified writer would ask for. And the two
basic things to ask for is the actual product – supplements,
newsletters, whatever – and the promotion to control and test.
Right?

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: What else would you ask for?

Clayton Makepeace: I also ask for – and they expect this – I think it’s a blunder when
you don’t – raw testimonials. Again, if you’re starting somebody
who is really hip on mailing and stuff, and internet promotion, they
may or may not have testimonials to work with. But most major
mailers do. Most people who’ve been in the mail any time, do
have testimonials. I always ask for raw testimonials. That’s what
the customer said, word for word, warts and all.

[Link] Page 11 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 12 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

And it can be grammatically incorrect. It can have horrible

misspellings in it. It can ramble on for pages. I don’t care. I want
to see it all. Because I don’t want to trust somebody else to have
edited that testimonial, and to have really drawn the meat out of it.

And so the Federal Trade Commission allows you to edit

testimonials, so long as you don’t change their meaning. And that
gives you a lot of latitude in carving these testimonials down in a
way that will really have great impact. So I don’t trust that to other
people.

Another thing is public relations output. A lot of these companies

use PR agents to get press releases out there, and to get mentioned
in the media. There’s no better credibility boost than the fact that
your client has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, or major
health publications – Prevention Magazine, or some place else. Or
that people call him, or call them on a regular basis for insights on
the news, or things like that. So you’ve seen these little “as seen
on TV” stickers that they put all over everything that’s been
promoted on television.

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: What they’re saying there is that look, this is a large, credible
company. We have national coverage. And so you can believe
what we tell you about this product. So PR output is very
important. In Martin Weiss’s things, I broke down the PR output
into three major sidebars that I ran in his promotions. The first one
was just pictures of him on Nightline, and on CNBC, and on Fox
News talking with Neil Cavuto, or Ted Koppel, or these other
people, and talked about – just with a short blurb that says the year.
You know, 1989. Mark D. Weiss goes on Nightline to warn
people about the insurance crisis. Right? And then I had like eight
or nine of those in a box. So it was media appearances. Right?

The next one was actual quotes from the media about Weiss.
These were just little short one-liners. Forbes says this. Fortune
says this. And Barron’s says that. And so forth. Another sidebar
– I was fortunate enough to have a client who had been called to
testify before Congress about a problem in the insurance industry.
And so I had pictures of him on Capitol Hill, testifying before a
bunch of Congress people.

All of these things were tremendous credibility builders in my

packages. And then I also ran sidebars showing one or two
paragraphs of text from either an article that Martin had

[Link] Page 12 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 13 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

contributed to a publication, or that some publication had said

about Martin. So PR output is important. If you have it, use it.

We talked about the most successful promotions. Competitors are

fielding for a similar product. But also look outside of that a little
bit. Ask for any direct mail that’s come in in the last three or four
months, that their people have collected, that they’re impressed
with. Stuff that they think that there might be some application.
At Weiss, they have enormous files of this kind of material, and
many other mailers do.

Then articles, books, or other things that have been offered by the
client. In my area of health and finance, the editors of our
newsletters are quite often bestselling authors. I’ve done packages
for Barry Sears of The Zone diet, Deepak Chopra, and all of these
guys. And I required the client to send me everything that they had
written, so that I could read it, and really familiarize myself with
the tone of the author’s voice, as well as his message.

And then finally, the complete research kit on whatever theme

you’ve chosen as your lead theme for the package. Some clients
are better at this than others. But almost every publishing client, at
least, has editorial people who do the research for the regular
issues of the newsletters, like the premiums.

And so I ask for those people to help me. Let’s say, for example,
I’m doing a promotion on the emergence of China and India as the
world’s greatest economic powers. Well I don’t want to spend
hours and hours online, looking up that stuff and reading it all. If
they have a researcher there, chances are he’s already done the
research for articles or premiums that have been done, and would
be willing to do more. Knows right where to go. They have the
ability to do the Lexis Nexis searches. And they’re just good to
go. It’ll save you a lot of time on each job. And in the early going,
it’ll also enhance the perception of professionalism that the client
has of you.

Bob Bly: So to make the client say nice things when they’re talking about
me, I want to be prepared. I want to ask them for not only what
they expect me to ask them. If they don’t, they’ll view that I don’t
know the way this is done?

Clayton Makepeace: Well yeah. It’s gonna help you, in that you’ll have more material
to start with, so your first draft will be more on target. But it’s also
going to put them at ease, and feel that, wow, I’m working with a
pro here. He knows exactly what he needs from me.

[Link] Page 13 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 14 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Bob Bly: Makes sense. What else can I do to make a good impression with
my new client?

Clayton Makepeace: Well if they don’t offer a meeting with the designer of the product,
or the author, then I would request it. I would say, “You know, I
want to dive into this. You’ve given me a lot of great stuff. But I
really want to pick this guy’s brain. I want to get a sense of his
passion, and get to know his personality a little bit.” Clients have
flown their main guys in to see me. Other times I have to go see
them. But it’s a very helpful time.

And I always ask the question, “Why are you doing this?”
Because I’m looking for passion. And I’m looking for a
commitment between the editor and the prospect. You know? The
old “I’m not gonna let you fail” kind of thing. I got in this because
it breaks my heart to see people dying unnecessarily of heart
disease. Or I got into this because I just saw too many people get
waxed in the tech wreck, and lose their life savings. You know?
And I vowed right then and there, I would never let that happen
again if there was anything I could possibly do to stop it.

And so I’m looking for passion and personality in that meeting.

And also for a sense of the possible theme ideas, going forward,
that the editor’s most interested in. Or in the case of a supplement
product, the developments in the industry that he’s most excited
about, that the formulator’s most excited about. So request that
meeting, and have half a dozen starter questions available to you,
to kind of work through all of that with the designer of the product
or the editor.

Bob Bly: So request the meeting with the product developer or designer.
Great. What else can I do to do a good job for the client, but also
show them that I’m a real professional?

Clayton Makepeace: Alright. There’s two more things that I do. I like to provide a
platform. Now other people hate doing this. Carline Cole won’t
do it. She says, “You know it takes me as long to write the whole
package as it does to write the platform.” She says, “Pay me
double and I’ll give you a platform. Otherwise, I’ll just write the
copy.”

Parris, on the other hand, will write the first – Parris Lampropoulis
– will write the first several pages of the package and send it
through, just to get an early take on the tone and the main theme
from the client. I like to, after having the meeting with the group,

[Link] Page 14 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 15 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

and with the editor, or the forum leader, or whatever – I like to sit
down and put together just flow of consciousness stuff on what I’m
thinking about the product, and the client, and what I’m thinking
about what shape the promotion piece will ultimately take. I send
that through to the client, and say, “Here are my preliminary
thoughts. I’d like you to react to each one of them, and let me
know how you feel.”

Bob Bly: So in your case, you could either create a platform which is a
proposal or a description of the process you have in mind to write,
or as in Paris’s case, he gives them the actual copy. He gives them
two or three pages of copy.

Clayton Makepeace: It’s extremely rough. Flow of consciousness. Here’s kind of

where I want to go.

Bob Bly: Here’s what I want to do.

Clayton Makepeace: What do you think? And it’s their responses to that that’s gonna
give you some clues that will save you a lot of time on second and
third drafts.

Bob Bly: Now your next comment about what to do to wow a client is
something that I, being now a people person, have really done
horribly. But you say communicate with the client at unexpected
times. Why? Aren’t these people busy?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah they are. But the whole time they’re busy, they’ve got this
little thing in the back of their mind. Gee, I wonder how that
copy’s going.

Bob Bly: Uh-huh. You’re right.

Clayton Makepeace: And they don’t want to bother you, because they know you’re
busy. They don’t want to interrupt your workflow. They don’t
want you to feel pressured, because they want quality. And they
know if you’re thinking about a deadline, they’re gonna get the
copy on deadline, but it’ll probably stink. If you’re thinking about
the copy, whether it comes in on deadline or not, it’s gonna be
strong. So they don’t want you to feel rushed or pushed. At least a
smart client doesn’t.

So just dropping an email to them. Hey, it’s going great. Or hey, I

found this new web page with some great new information on it.
Or I have some new headlines that I just think are fantastic. It’s

[Link] Page 15 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 16 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

going great. Confirm when you think that you’ll have the copy to
them, the first draft copy.

Or just call ‘em up on the phone, say, “Hey, how’s it going? I just
thought I’d touch bases. Want to let you know I’m really having a
lot of fun with this subject. It’s coming along. And I think it’s
gonna be gangbusters.”

Just check in with them from time to time. And you do that,
they’re going to – first of all, think about it from their position.
Okay? They hire you. They give you thousands of dollars in an
advance fee. They clear an opening for you in their all important
mail schedule that will be vacant if you don’t deliver on time. And
then they’re supposed to sit there and cool their heels for three
weeks, four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, while you’re supposedly
working on their copy.

And they have no input from you whatsoever. Calling in even

with questions, or certainly any of the things that I’ve just
mentioned, goes a long way towards putting them at ease, and
feeling this is a comfortable, professional relationship.

Bob Bly: So another tip for establishing yourself as a good professional,

someone they can be happy they hired, is client confidence.

Clayton Makepeace: I think so. And don’t be afraid to ask questions. If you go in there
under this guise that I am the world’s greatest copywriter, and I’m
gonna save your company, and I’m gonna write this big control,
and I know everything there is to know, and you go in there like
that – first of all, you’ve got a credibility problem. Because if
they’ve been around for a long time, they know there is no such
thing as the world’s greatest copywriter.

The second thing that you’ve got going against you is that they’re
going to feel uncomfortable making suggestions, or sharing ideas
they’ve had with you. If instead, you approach this as being a
member of this other team that you’re excited to be on. And you
talk to them. And you pick their brains. And you find the people
who are on the team – maybe the assistant marketing people, or
even down lower on the ladder – and you just call ‘em up, and you
ask ‘em a couple of questions, you’re gonna strike gold in a lot of
those cases.

And you’ve got to remember these are corporate animals. They all
have managers. They all have meetings once a week, where

[Link] Page 16 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 17 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

they’re supposed to be able to tell their bosses how the copy’s

coming. And they don’t have a clue.

Bob Bly: Now here’s what people are nervous about. They’re saying, “What
happens if I think I’m doing a good job, but what happens if the
client doesn’t hire me back, or they fire me? What are the
common reasons why clients get so unhappy that they will stop
doing business with a copywriter, or even kick him off a job?”

Clayton Makepeace: I think the first one is really chemistry. Okay? And it’s that whole
thing of if you try to make it – I say quite often – first you make a
friend, then you make a sale. And that’s true with copy. But it’s
also true with dealing with clients. The chemistry’s important.
And doing little things, in order to allow the people internally to
feel that you value them, you value their experience, and that
you’re willing to listen to their ideas, I think is very important.

Another one if over promising and underperforming. If you think

it’s gonna take you three weeks to get the copy done, tell ‘em four,
and deliver in three. You know? I’m not saying lie to ‘em. I’m
just saying I tend to be the eternal optimist. Wendy’s always
talking about how I describe something that needs to be done. I
say, “It’s easy. Just do this, that, and the other thing.” Well it’s
not easy. It’s never easy. It always takes longer than I think it
will. So allow for that, so that when you can deliver, you’re
delivering something within the time frame, if at all possible.

And quality of the copy is more important than the deadline, to me

though. And if it’s not there on the deadline, then I communicate.
You know? I’ll say, “You know it’s not quite there. I need
another week,” or whatever, to try to keep the client up-to-date.
Then again, that attitude is very important, that I’m here to help
you. And I want to accommodate you.

A lot of times, people internally will actually sandbag or sabotage

you. They feel that you’re minimizing their importance to the
process. So there are those people out there. And the best way to
neutralize them is to bring them into the process, and make them
feel valuable.

Another is failure to listen. And I think this comes back to the

fearlessness that goes along with feeling free to ask questions. I
can’t tell you how many times I’ve brought in younger copywriters
to work with a client, and the client and I both tell him what’s
important to the client, what are the themes that have worked in the
past. We’ve tested all of these things, and this works better than

[Link] Page 17 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 18 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

that, and so forth. But then the copy comes back, and it’s like we
never had that conversation. So I think it’s really important to pay
attention to the things that they’re telling you. And you can read
between the lines, in an attempt to deliver something that’ll be very
close on first draft.

The chemistry thing. I want to go back to that for a second. That’s

just really not something where you can go away, and you can say,
“Well that person’s just a jerk.” If you weren’t able to salvage a
client with your own native charm, then it’s not that person’s fault.
You know? There are people everywhere that are not gonna get
along with you. Maybe you look like an aunt that once spanked
‘em, or an uncle that got ‘em in trouble once, or something. You
know? You can’t help that.

But as a copywriter, as somebody who provides a service to a

company, it’s your job to overcome that, and to identify people
that you’re dealing with who are difficult, and to find ways to win
them over.

Bob Bly: How could you win over someone who is difficult, let’s say cold to
you. You know, they answer you in monosyllables. And you can
tell they don’t like you.

Clayton Makepeace: Well sometimes it’s not possible. But I think making the effort is
important. And many times, I’ve found out that that person I
thought didn’t like me, was just intimidated. Or that person who
didn’t like me was new, and just needed someone to say, “Hey
look, I think you’re great. I think you’re doing a great job.
You’ve given me a lot of ideas here.” You know? And copy their
boss on the email when you say that. You know? Understand that
people skills are important. They’re important to the process here.
And that any relationship that’s strained, where other members of
the team aren’t really contributing to you and helping you,
weakens your overall effort. So –

Bob Bly: So look for the chemistry. Be aware of the chemistry. And try to
fix it if you can. Make sure you listen. And don’t over promise,
and then under deliver.

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: What other big blunders do copywriters make to get them the
boot?

[Link] Page 18 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 19 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Clayton Makepeace: I think one of the things I run into with young writers all the time
is that when the copy comes in, they’re apologizing for it. And
they say, “Well I didn’t quite get this section right. Or I don’t like
this argument. Or I don’t really believe that.” Or –

Bob Bly: A lot of caveats and bewares?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. When I present my copy, I try to make it a gala event. I
don’t oversell it. I don’t say, “Here’s the best package that you’ll
ever see.” But I let them know that I’m proud of the copy, that I’m
proud of the effort, and I have high hopes for it.

I also make sure that when they look at my copy, it looks like it
was prepared with care. It’s not all different sizes of type, and
colors, and things all over the page. You know? Clients tend to
see that kind of thing and think, “You know, this guy’s covering up
for the fact that he thinks the copy’s weak. And so he’s got to go
through, and he’s gotta make this paragraph bigger than that
paragraph. And he’s gotta do all of these other crazy things.”

And almost trying to be a graphic designer in presenting your

copy. I’ll run my main head in 72-point type if I want to in my
first draft. Then my running text is all 12-point Times. My
subheads are all 14-point Impact. My sidebars are all 12-point
Arial, or Helvetica, or Veranda. And with the headlines and the
sidebars at 20-point Times, bold. And that’s it.

Bob Bly: What type is the 72-point headline?

Clayton Makepeace: Say what?

Bob Bly: What type is the main headline?

Clayton Makepeace: I tend to go with Impact, because it’s a nice, big, fat, Sans Serif,
condensed face. And because it’s condensed, I can get more letters
on a line with it, which gives you a bigger headline size. Right?

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: My rule of thumb is if my headline is 36-point – and I’m looking

for no more than three lines for a headline. Right? So if it’s 36-
point, that’s an okay headline. If it’s 48-point, that’s a pretty good
headline. If I can do it in 72-point, that means now I’ve just done a
two-word headline, maybe six letters. And I mean that’s the best
there is. That’s like firing off a gun behind somebody.

[Link] Page 19 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 20 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Bob Bly: I just looked at Impact. It’s cool. I’ve noticed that you do that.
I’ve been using Arial Black. But Impact’s a very nice headline
type.

Clayton Makepeace: Yep.

Bob Bly: So you want to make it look good. What about typos? Is that
acceptable? Does it matter?

Clayton Makepeace: Well you know, all I worry about on my drafts – they’re not
expecting us to be copy editors or proofreaders. I tell the story that
one time when I delivered copy, I had an email – or actually, it was
a letter that I sent along with it – and I said, “This has not been
prefrooded yet.” I misspelled the word proofread.

Bob Bly: As though you were being funny?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. So they thought I was being hilarious. So I’ve used it ever
since. But it was a mistake the first time.

Bob Bly: Yeah.

Clayton Makepeace: I just run a good spellchecker on it. I turn off the thing in Word
that checks your grammar. That thing is just –

Bob Bly: Yeah, I don’t use it.

Clayton Makepeace: But I just do a good spell check. And then I go through and make
sure that it reads well. I don’t care about – what is it? The UPI or
AP rules. Sometimes I’ll use the number three as a big old
number. And sometimes I’ll spell it. It just depends –

Bob Bly: So as long as it looks good. It’s professional. It looks like it was
professionally presented and prepared, and you don’t apologize for
it. You hand them something that you think is good.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. I’ve had copywriters where I wanted a 24-page piece from
them. And that requires 32-pages, single-spaced, roughly. And
using the parameters I just outlined, 12-point running text, and so
forth, it’ll be about 32 pages long, in order to fill a 24 page
magalog.

And so these guys send me copy that all the running text is 16-
point. Well that just insults my intelligence. They have written
way too short, and they’re trying to cover up for it by running

[Link] Page 20 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 21 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

everything in large type. So don’t insult their intelligence. Make

sure that your finished product is professionally presented.

Bob Bly: Any other common mistakes I want to avoid making?

Clayton Makepeace: Some copywriters will send a copy in with two or three different
leads right up front. And I think that presents the client with a
decision to make too early in the process. What I do is I like to
pick what I think is my strongest lead and put it up front, so that
the client can read my longest headline of that copy, my opening
copy, and then all the way through my running text, without
interruption.

Then after the last line of my sales letter, or running text, in the
case of a magalog, I’ll have a section that says “Sidebars.” And in
that section, then I will have each sidebar that’s going to punctuate
that running text with an approximation of where it goes. You
know? This goes with the copy. This goes on page two. You
know? This is the bio. This goes with the running text on such
and such. And so forth all the way through.

And then finally, I have my response device and back cover, in the
case of a self mailer. And so they can go all the way through the
sequence, and really gage the copy. Then if I have other leads or
other headlines, then I add them to the very tail end of the
document. And I do that even though I may not be in love with
them. They may be alternates. They may be things I’d like to test.
Or they may just trigger ideas for discussion as we’re going over
the second draft later, going after that draft later.

Bob Bly: Now it’s five of one, but folks today we’re not ending at 1:00. We
have until 1:30, and we let you know that. So we have plenty of
time, and we’re not rushed. So don’t feel panicked. You can just
sit back and relax, take another sip of the coffee. We have at least
another half hour with Clayton.

So let me move on to the next topic: How to Keep a Client from

Killing Your Copy. Four Types of Critiques You’ll See Most
Often, and How to Handle It. And this is something that I hear
from people all the time. They say, “I’ll get freelancers who will
email me: ‘I handed in this copy to the client, and they say they
hate it.’” And the freelancer feels they’re dead in the water. They
don’t know what to do. They’re emotionally upset. The whole
thing’s falling apart.

[Link] Page 21 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 22 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, well in copywriting, as in life, your emotions are probably
your worst enemy. The first thing that a young copywriter has to
get used to is this putting yourself out there, and having the
response to your copy being less than you’d hoped. Some of the
writers I work with are absolutely crushed emotionally by that.
And they get over it. You know?

But it takes courage. It takes guts to pour your life into a piece of
copy for a period of time, send it off to a bunch of near strangers,
and basically lay yourself bare, and say, “Go ahead. Cut my heart
out. Do whatever you want to. Tell me it stinks if you want to.” I
mean that takes courage to make yourself that vulnerable to
somebody. What takes real fortitude is when the response comes
back, and it’s not what you had hoped.

I don’t remember the last – well yes I do. I do remember the last
time somebody said, “We don’t like it.” It was just a couple of
weeks ago. And it was Chris Moretti at Phillips. I had written a
promotion piece for one of these financial editors. And I had met
with the financial editor and talked with him. And none of the
Phillips was in that meeting. And the financial editor basically did
a brain dump for me. I then took that and turned it into the
platform that I was discussing earlier, and sent it to the group at
Phillips. And they loved it. They had a couple of very minor
comments on it. I then created the package along the lines of that
platform. And I got the call back that said, “We don’t like it.”

And my response to that was simply, “Well what don’t you like?”
And they said, “Well, we think that your approach here is a little
too general. Okay? We’d like to have something that’s more
specific. You’re talking about how Wall Street rips off investors,
and we’d like to have something that’s more topical.”

“Okay. Alright fine.” It would have been nice to have heard that
earlier. But since I hadn’t, I just dove back into the copy, and I
created a second draft. And they bought it with no changes. So,
you know, it’s a process. Get used to the idea that it is a process,
and that it can be messy.

Bob Bly: So what are the four types of critiques that you see most often?

Clayton Makepeace: Okay, well the one that you just mentioned, almost never happens.
Okay? It almost never happens that they say, “Well we just don’t
like it.” Alright? So you’ll get four kinds of critiques. The first
one is where the client identifies a problem that does not exist in

[Link] Page 22 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 23 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

the text. And then suggests a solution that would actually hurt
your response.

If a client or a marketing manager is particularly detail oriented,

they may come up with this kind of critique. And if the problem
doesn’t exist – like, for example, they’ll say, “Well you know I
think people who will read this might think that.” Well let’s face
it. People who read this are gonna think a lot of things. And quite
often, that kind of a critic is just somebody wanting to have
something to say. It’s not really even a crit.

But when you identify something where the client says there’s a
problem, you don’t see the problem, and he’s suggesting a solution
that’s gonna hurt, then you just need to get him on the phone at
that point.

Let me back up just a second, if I might. I think it’s important

when you begin the process, to set the ground rules for critting. In
fact, I do it even before I accept the assignment in the first place.
And my ground rules are that when you have critiques or
suggestions for my copy, that’s what they are. They’re
suggestions. They’re not changes. They’re suggestions. And
you’re hiring me to write this. And so then I will make the
decision as to whether your suggestion is one that warrants
inclusion in my copy or not. If we reach a point where we can’t
agree on that, then there needs to be somebody we can appeal to,
who’ll make the ultimate decision. And it needs, of course, to be
the person who’s gonna ultimately put his money behind this.

But in terms of marketing managers and other people that you

work with on a daily basis, they’re hiring you because you’re the
expert. If they were the expert, they could write it themselves.
And so other than legal issues, ethical issues, or issues of fact, I
make sure that everyone understands that I get to make the other
decisions. They can make decisions about facts, legal issues, and
ethical issues. But other than that, I’m the copywriter.

So having prepared the way that way, then when I get crits in that I
think are gonna hurt, it’s very easy to pick up the phone and say,
“Hey look, I don’t think this is a problem, and I just don’t want to
make a change here. And here’s why it isn’t a problem.” And
have the conversation with them. Nine times out of ten, they’ll let
you win.

The second kind of crit is when the client identifies a problem that
doesn’t exist, but his solution would be a strong addition to the

[Link] Page 23 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 24 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

copy. I love those. You know? Because any idea, no matter how
it’s derived, is something that’s gonna put money in my pocket.
So I tend to just congratulate them for being brilliant, and just go
straight to work, figuring a way to really make that work, to
leverage the power of the new idea.

The third way is when a client identifies a problem that does exist,
but his solution stinks. On those, I just validate their observation.
I say, “You know what? You’re right. That slipped past me.
That’s a problem. That’s something I want to change, but let me
think about how I want to do that.” And they’ll always say,
“Okay. Sure. Fine.” And then you can go back in, and you can
implement a solution that is gonna actually strengthen the copy.

And then the fourth kind of crit, the one that you really want, is the
one where the client finds a problem in the copy, or in
opportunities in the copy, and his suggested solution is brilliant.
When that happens, he’s just made you money. Go ahead, jump
on a plane, fly up there, and kiss him on the cheek. He’s a great
guy. Those are kinds of crits that you pray for.

It’s important to be able to personally separate your own emotions

or feelings about the copy from your objective assessment of what
will work, and what won’t work. And it’s enough, especially for
young writers, to figure out what you think is gonna work. It’s
very easy to become confused when a client, or somebody else,
jumps into the mix and starts giving you suggestions, and ideas,
and crits.

And it’s important to keep your own sense of balance, and know
that you’re responding to the crit on an intellectual basis, not an
emotional one. You’re not rejecting good crits because you’re
feeling defensive. And you’re not accepting bad crits because
you’re intimidated. So it’s very important to stay true to your
copy.

Bob Bly: Makes sense. Now next you’ve promised the magic three-word
answer that can instantly end any copywriting argument, and keep
your strongest effort in tact. You’re having these discussions, and
let’s say you don’t like the solution the client has suggested, or you
don’t think the problem the client thinks is a problem exists. And
you’re not winning the argument. You’re talking, and he or she
keeps saying, “Yeah, but – Yeah, but.” And they’re not agreeing
with you.

[Link] Page 24 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 25 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. The three words are “Let’s test it.” We used to do this at
Weiss all the time. I’ve done it with all my clients, as a matter of
fact, where somebody will come along and say, “Well you know
this headline is great, but I’d like to see something like this
instead.” And I’ll say, “Well let’s test it.” You know? Or one
client always loved to tell me what the market thinks. You know?
“Oh when people see this, they’ll think that. And they’ll just throw
it away.” You know? Well he didn’t know what the market
thought. He didn’t have a clue.

So rather than argue with him, and try to explain to him why the
market didn’t think that, which is silly, because I didn’t know, for
sure, what the market thought either. I just had a good gut on it.
I’d say, “Well hey, why don’t we test it?” And more often than
not, both of them worked quite well.

And when that happens, when you have two headlines that work
well, then what happens is the customer or the client can bicycle
the headline. So in January, he mails headline A, and in February,
he mails headline B. And so then that means that your package
doesn’t wear out and tire as quickly. You don’t have that attrition
when the same people see the package for a second time, because
they’re seeing a fresh headline, a fresh lead, maybe. So it ends up
making you money. So let’s test it is a really good way to solve
major issues, where you just can’t quite come to a meeting of the
mind with a client.

Bob Bly: Now moving to what some might call the dark side of copywriting.
Generally, seminars and teleconferences like this, and boot camps
are very positive about freelance writing. But there are problems
with it, just like there are problems with any other professions. So
next on our agenda is your: Five Times When You Should
Demand Your Kill Fee, Kiss the Client Goodbye, Walk Away.
That sounds pretty radical, so when would you ever want to do
that?

Clayton Makepeace: I think I’ve only done it maybe once or twice in 33 years.

Bob Bly: So this is an infrequent episode?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. Very. Well in terms of just outright firing the client,
absolutely. I’ve had a client that took two months to get back to
me with the first set of crits. And then they were way off the mark.
It was obvious that the person I was working with had no idea.
And I found out later, this was the first time they’d ever worked

[Link] Page 25 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 26 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

with a copywriter. And it was a larger company. So that surprised

me.

You know if we sat around and waited for clients to take that kind
of time with every draft, I’d write one package a year, and the
package would take a year to get into the mail. And I’d be making
peanuts. Okay? So the client – I need a feeling from the client that
they’re as motivated to get this in the mail as I am. And that
means responding to crits, and responding to research or questions
in a timely manner.

Bob Bly: What’s timely? A day? A week? A month?

Clayton Makepeace: Well it depends on what the request is, you know? If you’re just
asking for a copy review, a week or so should be plenty. You
know? Sometimes these companies go into budget meetings, and
they go into administrative pass for a period of time, so it may be a
couple of weeks. But certainly no more than that. They want your
copy on deadline.

And presumably, the reason is so they can get in the mail on

deadline. If they’re their own worst enemy when it comes to
turning around crits on drafts, that’s a major red flag.

What you want as a copywriter, the ideal client, is somebody who

will take your first draft, give you a few quick comments that’ll
make it legal, and maybe even strengthen the copy, ram it through
design in a couple of weeks, test it within six weeks, and roll out
within three months. Okay? That’s an ideal client.

Because that means the royalties you’re gonna earn on this will
start coming in three months down the line, depending on how
large your advance is, very quickly thereafter. When you have a
client that drags their feet like that, you can’t expect the royalties
to come in for a year.

Bob Bly: So number one, you might fire a client when they drag their feet on
the copy. They take too long to get back to you.

Clayton Makepeace: Yep.

Bob Bly: What are some of the other situations?

Clayton Makepeace: There are times where you’ll be with a client who’ll be requesting
these endless number of drafts. And they just seem pointless.
They just –

[Link] Page 26 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 27 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Bob Bly: I know who you’re talking about.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. I mean it just keeps going on, and on, and on. And I had a
client, and it was a very profitable client for me for many years.
And I went back to something I had written for these people, to see
what the last draft was on something I’d written years earlier,
because they wanted to excerpt some of the copy. And I realized
that I’d written 27 drafts. Now, you know, granted they weren’t
complete drafts. There might be a change in the product, or a
change in the premium, or something like that.

Bob Bly: But you had to open the file and do work 27 times.

Clayton Makepeace: Twenty-seven times.

Bob Bly: So that’s no good.

Clayton Makepeace: And quite often, it wasn’t because of my copy. It was because the
editor kept changing his opinion of the economy, or the premium
kept changing, or the product kept changing, or new legal concerns
came up, or whatever. And so that kind of a client costs you a lot
of money. And if they’re making you a lot, that’s fine. But if
they’re not, they go to the bottom of the list.

Bob Bly: Okay. So we don’t want clients that want 27 drafts?

Clayton Makepeace: Uh-huh. Another one is I have a friend – a copywriter friend –

who wrote a really great health package. And she gets it in the
mail. And it’s not her headline.

Bob Bly: I’ve had that happen.

Clayton Makepeace: Somebody rewrote the headline. And so she called the client, and
she said, “What the heck happened? I had a kick-butt headline.
This thing’s wimpy. This package is in deep trouble. What
happened?” “Oh well, we got to the press, and the editor changed
his mind, and didn’t like the headline, so we had to change it.”

Another case with a different writer, it was a legal issue that came
up at the last minute. Nobody called the writer. The copy was
changed. A client should be fired immediately. There’s no way
that you want to work for a client – because then they’re gonna call
back in a few weeks. And they’re gonna say, “Hey look, your
package didn’t work.” And my friend said, “What are you talking

[Link] Page 27 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 28 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

about? It wasn’t my package. That was your package. You guys

changed the copy.” You know?

Bob Bly: Exactly.

Clayton Makepeace: So anyone that does that is just absolute poison. They have to
respect the copywriter more than that. If they’re on the press at
two o’clock in the morning, and a lawyer says, “Hey, you’ve got to
change this word in the headline to that word in the headline,” I
want a phone call. You know? And then I can say, “Well you
know that’s not gonna work. Why don’t we use this word
instead?” And we can hopefully come to some resolution that will
save the package.

Bob Bly: So avoid clients who rewrite your copy without your permission,
or without telling you.

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: What else is so bad that you would walk away from a client?

Clayton Makepeace: Well I touched on this one earlier. And it’s basically the client
who thinks you’re taking dictation.

Bob Bly: What does that mean?

Clayton Makepeace: Well when they give you crits, they seem shocked that you don’t
just go through the copy and make the changes they’ve requested
verbatim. If you can get around that with them by careful care and
feeding of that client, then great. But if they’re insulted or angry
that you won’t just take dictation from them, then you’ve got a
problem on your hands, and that client is going to be less than
productive for you.

You know a lot of this we’re talking about is dollars and cents.
Okay? So it’s just common sense. But a lot of it, too, is the
emotional side of it. As you’re building your copywriting career,
you’ll be doing more and more projects. And you want to love
those projects. And you want to be excited about working on
them, and returning to them, and keeping them fresh. And it’s just
no fun when you’re dealing with people who are changing your
copy, or who are insulting to you, or who don’t value you, and
want you just to take dictation, or whatever.

And so there’s an emotional side of this too. I have a friend – I

keep returning to this particular friend today, for some reason –

[Link] Page 28 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 29 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

who really has a good balance on this. Basically, the money has to
be good, and I have to love the work. If the money isn’t good, but
I love the work, I might hang around a little bit, just because I love
the work. But if I hate the work, no matter how good the money is,
it’s just not worth it. You know?

And then of course the final time to move on is when you find a
more lucrative client. When you find somebody that does any of
the above things better, that gets back to you quicker on drafts, that
collaborates better with you on the copy, that provides you with
better research, that gives you the freedom that you need in order
to produce winners – and someone who does all of those things is
going to be a more lucrative client for you. And if your schedule is
full or filling, and you find somebody like that, then you’re going
to want to cut the clients at the bottom of the list, that are less
helpful in those ways.

And so, quite often through your career, you’re going to have to
make that choice. But I think it’s important for copywriters to
realize that we are business people first, and to confidently be
sorting that client list, and saying, “Who’s the best, in terms of
both income, income potential, and joy of working for them? And
who are the ones that I kind of dread the phone call, I kind of dread
working with. It’s difficult. And also the ones that I tend not to do
as well for.” And constantly be sorting that list. And constantly be
looking for new people to replace the ones that are at the bottom.

Bob Bly: That makes sense. And we’ve got a few questions. First is from
Joanne. Joanne says, “Where is the best source of finding
upcoming marketing conferences, where I can network with
potential clients?”

Clayton Makepeace: Bob, maybe you’d be the help on that one. I draw a blank on that,
because as I said in The Total Package, I haven’t been a
conference animal.

Bob Bly: I’m not much of a networker either. But let me give the answer,
and tell what I do. I actually don’t like to network, so what I’ve
done is to get my self out at these conferences. I actually don’t
intend to network. I will volunteer to give a presentation. That
way, you’re viewed as the expert, and all of the attention for that
hour of that conference is focused on you.

And you’re someone who didn’t just go there to go get business,

which makes you look sort of needy. But you’re someone who’s
there because you’re a top person in your field, and you’re

[Link] Page 29 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 30 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

knowledgeable in email marketing, or search engine optimization,

or whatever you’re talking about.

Now really the answer to where to go to conferences depends on

what your market is. So for example, if you are interested in
doing, as Clayton does, financial newsletters, well one place you
could go is The Money Show.

But if you’re interested in, let’s say, working for the type of clients
that I do a lot of work for, business to business type companies,
you would find an organization where the marketing managers of
those companies go. It happens to be The Business Marketing
Association, which is in Chicago. It’s [Link].

If you want to do a lot of work in newsletters – financial health

newsletters, business newsletters, travel newsletters, other
publications – and newsletters, as we’ve said, is a great market for
copywriters, then you want to get involved with an organization
called NEPA, the Newsletter and Electronic Publisher’s
Association. And that’s at [Link]. So those are
some sources for you.

Clayton Makepeace: I think another one too – I think you make an excellent point on
going as a speaker. There are a couple of things there. We will be
announcing our first conference here, slated for next spring, in the
next couple of issues of The Total Package. That’ll be an excellent
opportunity to network, because we’ll have clients there, as well as
copywriters, marketing people, as well as writers. Another one too
– I’ve avoided this like the plague my entire life, but the DMA –

Bob Bly: I was just gonna say the DMA. We overlooked it, both national
meetings that are held in New York or Washington, as well as your
local chapters. Direct Marketing Association.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah, and I think next year is in San Francisco, if I remember
correctly. If you go to the DMA site right now, Direct Marketing
Association site, they’re taking applications for speakers. So if
you would like to present on a particular aspect of direct
marketing, you could fill out that form, and get a shot at being a
speaker at the DMA.

Bob Bly: And unless you hate the idea of public speaking, I think that’s
often a better way to go than just show up and be a networker.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. Instead of being the teenage girl chasing rock stars through
a lobby, you’re an authority on a particular subject.

[Link] Page 30 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 31 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

Bob Bly: Right. You’re sort of the rock star for the hour.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah.

Bob Bly: So we’ve answered where to find these marketing conferences to

network with potential clients. The next question is from Mark,
our friend Mark Kay. “Does it make sense to try and get clients by
doing spec assignment for companies that pay big, and that you
want to work for, at the expense of a regular direct mail program
for your services? In other words, when time is limited, and you’re
in need of clients, is one route better than the other?” What he’s
asking is should I just contact a few big companies and offer to
work for them on spec? Or should I just do a mail blast, and mail
to 500 marketing directors, and hope someone’s interested?

Clayton Makepeace: Well I always did all of the above. But my approach was to keep a
lot of lines in the water. We’re obviously talking about somebody
at the beginning of their career here, who doesn’t already have a
track record and a history with these clients.

Six steps that I took early in my career to generate customers, to

generate clients from a fairly large list of big mailers that I was
going after. And I did that. And that yielded clients that I can
trace every dollar I make to today.

And in addition to that, I also took the spec route. I also went to –
I called it being a direct mail bully. I went to companies whose
control I felt I could beat. And I did one of several things. Either I
called them on the phone and offered them a deal where I would
write for free, in return for a royalty if I beat their control, or a
bonus if they won’t pay royalties.

And then I also would just go away, if I had time on my hands, and
felt inspired, like I could really crank this out in a day or two, or a
relatively short period of time. I’d just sit down, and I’d write a
kick-butt new package for the company, and then send it to them.
And then say, “Let me know what you think.” You know? “I
want to do this for you. And I’d be more than happy freshen it
up.” And then if they like what they see, then chances are you’ve
got a deal there. I would then negotiate either some advance, or
some fee for finishing the package. But now you’re in the door.

Bob Bly: I think that answered __________. And don’t think of these,
Mark, as either or. People will say to me, “Well, should I write
articles? Or should I send out mailings?” And I say, “Why is it

[Link] Page 31 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 32 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

either or. You should write articles, and you should send out
mailings.”

Clayton Makepeace: Right.

Bob Bly: Until you’re established, and until you’re at the point where more
people are coming to you than you can handle. When you’re not at
that point, then you have the time to do multiple self promotion
activities, and you should.

Clayton Makepeace: Bob, I’ve had several letters come in to me too that I’d like to
address real quickly if we can.

Bob Bly: Sure.

Clayton Makepeace: We seem to have a few minutes left.

Bob Bly: We do.

Clayton Makepeace: One of the emails that I get over and over again is - it’s like it’s
from people who are looking for excuses why they can’t succeed
in this business. And the excuses never have to do with their copy.
They have to do with barriers to entry. I got a letter the other day
from a woman who wanted to know is there sexual discrimination
in direct marketing?

Bob Bly: I think I have the same one. Mine’s from Carrie.

Clayton Makepeace: Well I wouldn’t –

Bob Bly: Well we’re only giving first names, so we’re not –

Clayton Makepeace: Alright. I’ve had several from people in Europe, wanting to know
if there’s a barrier to non-Americans writing for the American
markets.

Bob Bly: I get that a lot, but I’d like to hear how you answer that.

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. And I’ve had people ask me if there’s racial discrimination
going on? You know? And let’s take ‘em one at a time. Sexual
discrimination. Absolutely not. Not even a shred of it, have I
encountered or seen in this marketplace. For one thing, most – and
of course we’re talking about men not wanting to hire women here
– in the first place, most of the people who do the hiring, most of
the marketing managers are women. So you know all my bosses
are women almost. I think I have maybe one or two clients who

[Link] Page 32 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 33 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

I’m working with a male marketing director. The rest of them are
all women.

So I think it would be kind of silly for them to discriminate against

their own, just on the basis of sex. And I have friends who happen
to be females, who are doing extremely well in this market. You
all have read about Carline Anglade-Cole, and you’ve probably
heard me talk about Kim Githler, two wonderful writers who
create kick-butt controls for their clients. They’re well known as
A-level writers, and they make a fortune. So if you’re looking for
an excuse, sexual discrimination will not be one of them. It
doesn’t hold water.

On the racial discrimination thing, the same thing holds. There’s

no reason why a person of any ethnic background – why response,
or money, or customers generated by a person of any ethnic
background would be less valuable to a client than the people and
money that are generated by another writer. Again, these people’s
whole lives turn on finding great writers, people who can produce
results. You produce results, and it doesn’t matter, really, who you
are.

As far as a country discrimination is concerned, we’re obviously

talking about people from Great Britain, Australia, Canada, and
other countries that are English-speaking, wanting to know are
there barriers for them to entry. And the only barrier there really –
there is something to consider there. It’s not really a barrier. And
that’s just the sales copywriter’s colloquial in nature. In other
words, we’re not following all the great rules of grammar, and so
forth. We’re using idioms. And we’re using metaphors and
similes that our prospects are familiar with. And those figures of
speech are quite often not familiar to people from other countries,
or as familiar as they are to us.

And so sometimes when you’re working with writers from other

countries, there’ll be minor issues that crop up in the copy. You
know, the British are famous for calling the trunk of a car, the
boot. You know? Just things like that. They can be easily
handled though. I would encourage people from other countries to
immerse themselves in American culture as much as possible. Get
a handle for the differences in our languages.

But having said that, people are the same everywhere. And the
things that motivate us are the same. And so I encourage people
from other countries to take a whack at the American markets. In
fact, I have a man from the Netherlands, right now writing for me,

[Link] Page 33 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 34 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

and another gentleman from Canada writing for me. And I’m very
happy, so far, with the work they’ve done for me. So it’s
overcomeable.

Bob Bly: What about is there age discrimination? I get often emails from
people who say, “I wanted to have a second career. I might be
interested in copywriting, but I’m 60, I’m 65, I’m 70.”

Clayton Makepeace: I don’t think so. I was surprised and delighted at the AWAI
Conference at the number of people who are making copywriting a
second career. And I think it’s wonderful. I think it’s great that
that’s happening. I can see that when a marketing manager is
hiring a young person who’s just starting out, they don’t have the
impression that this person has moved on from something else.
They’re kind of like fresh. Right?

Bob Bly: Right.

Clayton Makepeace: When you go to hire a 50-year-old that has no experience, or very
little experience in the marketplace, there might be some
reservation at first. But remember, the copy that you’re writing,
the samples that you’re showing, that speaks volumes. You know?
That’s what it’s all about.

And it’s really not about your age, or whether this is your second,
or third, or fourth career – or your first. It’s about the power of the
words that you put on the page. And so if those words are
powerful – this is all about self interest for the clients. Okay? If
you can sell their product, they want you. That’s the bottom line.
If you can sell their product as well as, or better than they are now,
then they’re going to line up to get on your dance card. That’s all
there is to it.

Bob Bly: Terrific. Do you have other questions there in front of you?

Clayton Makepeace: Yeah. There was a question that I received about are there any
other ways to get compensation? I just wanted to share one that I
tried once, and it worked out quite well for me. A particular client
wanted me to work with him, but for one reason or another, the
upfront arrangement that I was used to just didn’t work that well
for him.

And so what I did was I structured a deal where I could work for
less on the front end, certainly enough to cover my monthly nut,
but I took stock options in his company, because I was absolutely
convinced that I could quadruple the size of that company.

[Link] Page 34 of 35
Response Ink 20051026-HighNoon2 Page 35 of 35
Bob Bly, Clayton Makepeace, Wendy Makepeace

And so I went in and I said, “Okay look. I need this much to live
every month, and to live well. And that’s basically all you can
afford right now. But if I didn’t come to work for you fulltime or
exclusively with you, I would be making this much. You know?
Many, many times more. So if I’m going to come and make this
investment in your company, I want an option that says that x
years down the road, three years – whatever you think it’ll take
you to really produce the growth – three years down the road, I
want stock options worth x percent of your company. And today
those stock options are worthless. But the money that I’ll get when
I cash those options in will compensate me for this time that I’m
spending with you.”

And he went for it. And it was a nice, very, very healthy payday
for me when I cashed those options out. So be creative about these
deals. I would only use that kind of approach with a client that I
was absolutely convinced was set up for explosive growth, and the
missing ingredient was me. And if I find a client like that, then
I’m more than willing to take that kind of a deal.

Bob Bly: Terrific. And on that note, we are at the end of our hour and a half
for today. So Clayton, we want to thank you once again. Next
week’s call is number three in the series, titled “Write Better Copy
Faster. Produce Up to Twice as Many Projects per Year, and Get
Bigger Winners More Often,” which is something we all want to
learn. And that is to dial into Wednesday at noon, like they always
are.

Clayton Makepeace: Great. Thanks a lot.

Bob Bly: Thanks everybody. Bye-bye.

Wendy Makepeace: Bye-bye.

Clayton Makepeace: Bye-bye.

[End of Audio]

[Link] Page 35 of 35