1

1 SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON DISCIPLINE AND EXPULSION

2
===============================================================
3
COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT:
4
SENATOR DAVID WHEELER, CHAIR
5 SENATOR JIM BOLIN
SENATOR SYDNEY DAVIS
6 SENATOR HELENE DUHAMEL
SENATOR BRENT HOFFMAN
7 SENATOR LIZ LARSON
SENATOR DEAN WINK
8 SENATOR ERIN TOBIN
SENATOR REYNOLD NESIBA
9
===============================================================
10
TUESDAY, JANUARY 31, 2023, 5:10 p.m.
11 500 EAST CAPITOL AVENUE
PIERRE, SOUTH DAKOTA 57501
12
===============================================================
13

14 APPEARANCES:

15 As Counsel for Employee: JACK H. HIEB

Richardson, Wyly, Wise,
16 Sauck & Hieb
PO Box 1030
17 Aberdeen, SD 57401

18 As Counsel for Senator

Frye-Mueller: STEVEN G. HAUGAARD
19 Haugaard Law Office
1601 East 69th Street
20 Sioux Falls, SD 57108
-and-
21 STEPHANIE TRASK
Bad River Law
22 PO Box 786
Philip, SD 57567
23

24
Reported by Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR, Capital Reporting
25 Services, P.O. Box 903, Pierre, SD 57501 (605) 224-7611.

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 2

1 TUESDAY, JANUARY 31, 2023

2 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I will call this select committee

3 back into session. We do have a court reporter present taking

4 testimony today; so I would ask everybody to be sure to speak

5 slowly and clearly for her benefit. And then for purposes of

6 the record, I would ask Senator Frye-Mueller's counsel to

7 identify themselves.

8 MR. HAUGAARD: Steve Haugaard appearing on behalf of

9 Senator Julie Frye-Mueller.

10 MS. TRASK: Stephanie Trask also appearing on behalf

11 of the Senator.

12 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: The record can reflect that Senator

13 Frye-Mueller is also present along with all members of the

14 committee. Then I would ask counsel for the employee to

15 introduce himself.

16 MR. HIEB: Jack Hieb appearing on behalf of

17 (employee).

18 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Thank you. So we are convening

19 here for the purpose today of receiving testimony from

20 (employee) regarding the incidents alleged in the complaint.

21 So I will first open it up to (employee), if she wishes to make

22 an opening statement or any direct testimony to the committee,

23 you can do so at this time.

24 COURT REPORTER: Do you want me to swear her in?

25 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Yes, I appreciate that. We will do

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 3

1 an oath for each individual; so as the Chair of the committee,

2 I will be administering those oaths. So (employee) I would ask

3 you to raise your right hand.

4 Thereupon,

5 EMPLOYEE,

6 called as a witness, being first duly sworn as hereinafter

7 certified, testified as follows:

8 EMPLOYEE: I swear that all the testimony I give is

9 correct.

10 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Thank you. You may proceed.

11 EMPLOYEE: Thank you, Mr. Chair, committee. First and

12 foremost, the statement that I gave you and my supervisor in

13 the LRC, I still stand by that. The big thing I want to just

14 say is I love my job, I love my job, and I very much hope this

15 doesn't affect it, and I love my family. That's my statement.

16 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Thank you. At any point if you

17 need a break, please let us know.

18 MR. HIEB: With your permission, Mr. Chair, we had

19 talked about this before, and I think the statement that she

20 provided in writing to her supervisor has been pretty well

21 publicized by now, quite a bit of it without her name on it.

22 As long as that's part of the record, I think her intent was to

23 simply suggest that I have put it in writing and she's making

24 herself available now to answer any questions that anyone may

25 have. Thank you.

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 4

1 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Thank you. The redacted version of

2 that statement has been received already into the record and is

3 part of the committee documents. I will start it off with the

4 first question, and (employee), I would like to have you verify

5 for us, did you personally write out this statement?

6 EMPLOYEE: Yes.

7 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: About how long a period of time did

8 it take you to go through and do that?

9 EMPLOYEE: After the incident?

10 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: No. How much time did you spend in

11 preparation of this document?

12 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair, I spent a few hours putting it

13 together. I am sorry to say I didn't time it.

14 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: That's completely understandable.

15 Just trying to get a feel for what time you did put into that.

16 I will open it up to questions from the committee. Senator

17 Nesiba.

18 SENATOR NESIBA: Questions to go through the Chair?

19 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Thank you. We will treat it just

20 like any other legislative committee. Questions will go

21 through the Chair before being posed.

22 SENATOR NESIBA: I am going to follow up on your

23 question. When did you write the statement? Was it right

24 immediately after the incident or did you write it the next

25 day? Just trying to figure out the time frame.

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 5

1 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. The next day.

2 SENATOR NESIBA: Thank you.

3 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Duhamel.

4 SENATOR DUHAMEL: My question is how did it make you

5 feel? Was this a girlfriend to girlfriend? Was it girlie

6 talk, as it's been described? How did this make you feel?

7 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. I felt violated. The

8 conversation had, as I outlined in my statement, began as a

9 conversation over a bill draft. It was not personal. She had

10 asked -- excuse me, Senator Frye-Mueller had asked to meet with

11 me. I did not seek her out. So the conversation had started

12 professionally, and I had every expectation that it would

13 remain professional.

14 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Bolin.

15 SENATOR BOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can you relate

16 how this -- the incident or your version of the incident was

17 communicated to the leadership of the Senate? I assume -- it

18 got there much long before I was aware of it. Can you

19 communicate that to us, just so we get a little more of a time

20 line?

21 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. Unfortunately, I am not clear

22 myself as to what happened after -- so let me begin. I gave my

23 statement to Sue Cichos, the deputy director at the LRC, who

24 then told me she would speak with Reed, the director of the

25 LRC. From then on, I was not party to any other conversation,

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 6

1 nor was I aware of what was happening internally with Senate

2 leadership.

3 SENATOR BOLIN: If I can just go a little bit further,

4 this incident took place somewhere between like 3:30 and 4:00

5 o'clock on that particular day. That's accurate, right?

6 EMPLOYEE: Correct.

7 SENATOR BOLIN: And then did you communicate this to

8 anyone else during the remainder of that day?

9 EMPLOYEE: I did not.

10 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair, can I?

11 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

12 MR. HIEB: Anybody else at her work place or anybody

13 at all?

14 SENATOR BOLIN: Anyone at all.

15 MR. HIEB: Give them a narrative about what you did.

16 EMPLOYEE: So after the conversation had ended and

17 Senator Frye-Mueller and her husband had left my office, I

18 proceeded to shut my door, and it was upsetting, but I had some

19 other things to think about. It was the end of the day, I was

20 a -- I was quite frankly in shock. My husband's in-laws were

21 in town and certainly -- there was just some other things at

22 play. I wanted to go be with my family, and so with all those

23 things considered, I went home. The first people I actually

24 told that this happened was my husband and my mother-in-law,

25 and that's where I first conveyed these things and really

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 7

1 realized how violated I felt and how disgusted I felt with

2 myself that my body parts would be talked about. Thank you.

3 SENATOR BOLIN: Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Hoffman.

5 SENATOR HOFFMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6 (Employee), I first just want to make a few brief comments,

7 that this is uncomfortable for us, and I can't imagine and

8 genuinely empathize with how uncomfortable it must be for you.

9 I just want to acknowledge that before I get into a few brief

10 questions, but I appreciate your courage in just coming forward

11 and sharing your story honestly and objectively.

12 EMPLOYEE: Thank you.

13 SENATOR HOFFMAN: I have heard it described, I think I

14 read this in the media, as a woman/woman conversation in which

15 someone was providing advice, as if it had been requested, but

16 I would like to know whether this was unsolicited advice or if

17 you had asked some questions along the way asking for advice.

18 EMPLOYEE: This was unsolicited. Nowhere did I ask to

19 be talked to like this. No.

20 SENATOR HOFFMAN: Thank you, ma'am.

21 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Duhamel.

22 SENATOR DUHAMEL: My question is the husband's

23 involvement. We have been told that the husband left during

24 the, quote, girlie talk. I'm just wondering what was the

25 Senator's husband's involvement in this? Was he there during

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 8

1 the uncomfortable parts?

2 EMPLOYEE: He was there standing in front of my

3 doorway, standing in front of my closed door, both her and her

4 husband were standing there. He was nodding in agreement and

5 looking at me through the exchange in a -- his smiling made me

6 severely uncomfortable.

7 SENATOR DUHAMEL: Okay.

8 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator.

9 SENATOR DAVIS: I was wondering if you could describe

10 your relationship with Senator Frye-Mueller prior to this

11 incident.

12 EMPLOYEE: First and foremost, if I could first

13 explain a little bit about my job. I'm a legislative staffer.

14 That means not only do I have my current supervisors in the LRC

15 as my bosses, but I have 105 bosses, and that means I deal with

16 a lot of different ideas and a lot of different things that I'm

17 working on at any one given time. And part of how I give a

18 good service, I believe, how I serve all of you is being

19 friendly, it's being courteous, it's listening to you when you

20 come with bill ideas and so forth.

21 And I recognize the passion and I truly enjoy helping

22 you all, but it's not me being your friend, it's me just being

23 your staffer doing a job. I don't see any of you outside of

24 this job. I did not see Frye-Mueller outside of this job. I

25 did not hang out, hang out or go out to eat with her or

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 9

1 anything like that. There is no text messages that would prove

2 that. There is no emails. I have never even seen her in

3 public outside of this building. So I don't -- I don't know

4 why my friendliness in my job is being construed that I'm her

5 friend.

6 SENATOR DAVIS: Thank you.

7 SENATOR TOBIN: Mr. Chair.

8 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Tobin.

9 SENATOR TOBIN: Throughout your time working with

10 Senator Frye-Mueller, have you ever been made to feel

11 uncomfortable before this day that you have in your testimony?

12 EMPLOYEE: Yes. Would you like me to expand?

13 SENATOR TOBIN: Mr. Chair. Yes, please.

14 EMPLOYEE: Senator Frye-Mueller I do believe has

15 crossed boundaries sometimes with me, I suppose in this because

16 she's believed we were friends, but again, I go back to me

17 trying to do my job and be supportive and get the job done.

18 And at the end of the day, I did allow things -- I did allow

19 her to say things that made me uncomfortable. Unfortunately,

20 this time, this time involved my son. I could not let that

21 slide.

22 MR. HAUGAARD: Just for clarification, do we have a

23 time frame associated with that? There is a reference now to

24 son. I don't understand that.

25 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I think what I would prefer to do

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 10

1 is if you could keep that on your list of questions. I think

2 once the committee is finished with its questioning, I will

3 open it up for counsel to ask questions.

4 MR. HIEB: Can we take just a really short break, with

5 your permission?

6 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Absolutely.

7 MR. HIEB: I want her to gather herself.

8 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Let's take a five-minute recess.

9 (Whereupon, the committee hearing was in recess at

10 5:25 p.m., and subsequently reconvened at 5:29 p.m., and the

11 following proceedings were had and entered of record:)

12 MR. HIEB: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

13 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: You are very welcome. We will call

14 the committee back into session. Still on committee questions.

15 Senator Tobin.

16 SENATOR TOBIN: Mr. Chair. As far as feeling

17 uncomfortable previously, can you elaborate on what types of

18 specifics made you uncomfortable previously with Senator

19 Frye-Mueller?

20 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. It would be things that didn't

21 have anything to do with bill drafts, nothing to do with

22 research. It would just be comments, you know, there was -- I

23 got married in (year) in Minnesota, and there was a comment

24 that she couldn't believe I got married in Minnesota, that a

25 specific party controls that state, and she went into some

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 11

1 details about that and it crossed the lines of -- again, it

2 crossed the lines of any professionalism. It went into my

3 personal life, into my family. Those were things like that

4 that made me uncomfortable.

5 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Wink.

6 SENATOR WINK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. (Employee),

7 I'm reading your statement. Evidently when the Senator came

8 in, you started talking about bills and everything was fine,

9 but then when the conversation moved over to vaccinations, the

10 temperature of the room went up, you started feeling

11 uncomfortable. If I understand this right, you went from

12 uncomfortable to you described it to upset to emotionally

13 violated. What I want to know is did you ever at any time feel

14 in physical danger with this situation?

15 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. I didn't feel that I was in

16 immediate physical danger, but I was concerned that things

17 could escalate, if Senator Frye-Mueller got more upset.

18 SENATOR WINK: Thank you.

19 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Larson.

20 SENATOR LARSON: I want to get a sense. You mentioned

21 that there were other times in the course of your job that you

22 had felt uncomfortable, and I'm trying to get a sense of was

23 this a common occurrence culturally within LRC that staff had

24 to deal with or was it more of like in the sense that was this

25 the straw that broke the camel's back or was it more of a

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 12

1 specific one time or a couple time incident, if there was sort

2 of something? I don't know if you have any thoughts about

3 that.

4 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. In this job, we deal with high

5 tension situations, and people, legislators, staff, we say

6 things, I think we all know that, but, ummm, this conversation

7 went as far as to say that my son would die, my child, that

8 something physically might happen to him based on my parenting

9 decisions. It talked about one of my body parts and sexual

10 acts I would do with my husband, and I don't believe that's --

11 I don't think that's -- that's not falling into the category of

12 maybe getting a little heated if your bill didn't go -- your

13 hearing didn't go the right way. That's beyond what should be

14 happening in this building. I truly believe that crossed a

15 very clear boundary.

16 SENATOR BOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Chair. At any time

17 during any of these -- during the one incident and others, did

18 you ever indicate to the Senator, can you please stop talking

19 about this?

20 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. Quite frankly, I don't feel

21 like I can say that I am -- that -- I don't feel like I have

22 the ability to say that because of my role as a staffer and

23 that you all have that relationship of being my -- I view you

24 all as my bosses, and I don't believe that if I were to upset

25 you in that way, that you may decide not to work with me or

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 13

1 something to that effect. So no, I did not.

2 SENATOR BOLIN: Thank you.

3 SENATOR TOBIN: Mr. Chair.

4 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Tobin.

5 SENATOR TOBIN: With everything that has happened in

6 the last week, have you ever been fearful that you would have

7 to leave your job or that you would lose your job?

8 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. I was fearful, and I still am,

9 that I will be treated differently, that certain legislators

10 may not want to work with me, and I don't want to leave this

11 job, but I do have that fear.

12 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Duhamel.

13 SENATOR DUHAMEL: Have you paid attention to how the

14 Senator is portraying the incident, and how do you respond to

15 how it's being portrayed versus how you say it happened?

16 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. It's been really upsetting to

17 me to -- I haven't been able to listen to much. Some of the

18 comments I've seen, they are very mean. And so I have had to

19 take a break and not look on social media or look on some of

20 these news blogger sites, just for my mental health. I know I

21 need to take care of myself too in this situation.

22 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Larson.

23 SENATOR LARSON: This is kind of a follow-on question

24 to that, but had you, in your mind, any expectation of the

25 amount of attention that this has gotten in the media? How has

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 14

1 been your -- obviously mentally it's been extremely difficult.

2 Was it worse than you thought? How did you handle that?

3 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. It's been extremely difficult,

4 for the reason I am legislative staff and I enjoy the

5 background. I do not want the lime light. I leave that to all

6 of you, and you all do it very well. I don't want to be in the

7 news. That was not my intention. I just would like to take a

8 step back and just say that when I gave my statement to my

9 supervisor in the LRC, my intention was this was not to get in

10 the news. My intention was just to make my supervisors aware

11 that I was uncomfortable, that I thought this matter needed

12 their attention, but in no way, no, I did not want this in the

13 news, no.

14 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Senator Bolin.

15 SENATOR BOLIN: Just for the record, (employee), how

16 long have you worked for the LRC? When were you first hired?

17 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. I was hired in (year); so this

18 is my (ordinal) session here.

19 SENATOR BOLIN: And then just to follow up, in the

20 (number) years you have been working in the LRC, have you had

21 any incident with any other Senator, either current or present,

22 that made you uncomfortable, any other incident with any other

23 individual?

24 EMPLOYEE: No. I have not made a statement like this

25 ever accusing a legislator of harassment, no, no.

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 15

1 SENATOR BOLIN: Thank you.

2 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Further questions. Then at this

3 time I will invite counsel for Senator Frye-Mueller to pose

4 questions. Again, we will run those through the Chair.

5 MR. HAUGAARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to

6 clarify, going back to that one point where you made some

7 comment about this prior times of discomfort where your son was

8 involved or was this part of it? Tell me about the time frame

9 and what you are talking about in regard to your son.

10 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. This event that I wrote my

11 statement on was dealing with my son. He was just born in

12 (month). No other incidents with Senator Frye-Mueller had to

13 do with my son.

14 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair.

15 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

16 MR. HAUGAARD: So during this incident, you didn't say

17 anything to Senator Frye-Mueller or her husband about your

18 discomfort with the conversation; is that correct?

19 EMPLOYEE: No, I did not.

20 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair. Prior situations, you never

21 expressed to Senator Frye-Mueller that you were uncomfortable

22 with the conversation?

23 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: What I will do is I will let you

24 answer the question. Just be careful we are not repeating. I

25 believe she's answered that previously to other questions, but

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 16

1 I'll let you go ahead and answer it again this time.

2 EMPLOYEE: No.

3 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair, another question. You made

4 a reference to comments that were mean. Who were these

5 comments -- making these comments? Are you talking about

6 something Senator Frye-Mueller said since this came out?

7 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. No, I am talking about --

8 again, this is just my personal feelings. Some of the comments

9 I saw on a blog post I thought were mean, but of course that

10 was just my personal opinion.

11 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair. Do you have a copy of your

12 employment record with you today?

13 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

14 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

15 EMPLOYEE: No, I do not.

16 MR. HAUGAARD: Just to follow up to that. Would you

17 make that available to us?

18 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I'm going to decline to pose that

19 question to the witness.

20 MR. HAUGAARD: Additional question.

21 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

22 MR. HAUGAARD: You indicate that you have never

23 accused a legislator of harassment. Have you ever accused

24 anyone else of harassment?

25 SENATOR WHEELER: I am going to also decline to pose

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 17

1 that question to the witness. We are going to keep it to

2 conduct related to her job here as an LRC staffer. I believe

3 she's answered that question regarding harassment of people

4 here. If you want to rephrase it in that sense, I would allow

5 that, but I'm not going to open this up to questions regarding

6 any other person at any other time.

7 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair, it's relevant to

8 credibility.

9 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I don't believe her having made a

10 prior harassment allegation against somebody is relevant to her

11 credibility, unless you have proof that she's previously

12 testified falsely in that case.

13 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair. My question to her is

14 simply whether there's been any other allegations of harassment

15 against anyone in the work place.

16 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: If you keep it to questions

17 regarding her employment here in LRC, I will allow that

18 question.

19 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

20 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

21 EMPLOYEE: No.

22 MR. HAUGAARD: Additional question. Where did you

23 previously work?

24 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

25 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 18

1 EMPLOYEE: When I started with the LRC in (year), that

2 was my first job beyond working for (place of employment).

3 MR. HAUGAARD: Additional question.

4 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

5 MR. HAUGAARD: As you were preparing your statement,

6 did you have conversation with anyone else in regard to what

7 should be included in the statement?

8 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

9 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

10 EMPLOYEE: No.

11 MS. TRASK: Mr. Chair.

12 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

13 MS. TRASK: Just a few additional questions. First of

14 all, a clarification. Is this session here considered the

15 Senate's investigation into this matter?

16 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I'll consider that a question to

17 the Chair. Yes, this is part of the investigation. This is

18 not the entirety of the investigation.

19 MS. TRASK: Additional question. Could you describe

20 the entirety of the investigation just so the defense is clear

21 as to where we are in the investigation?

22 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Sure. So the committee is

23 receiving testimony today. We are receiving testimony right

24 now from the employee. After we are done with this, I am going

25 to go back into open session. We will then invite testimony

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 19

1 from Senator Frye-Mueller. If you have a witness that you want

2 to present, that would be the time to do that. But we would

3 intend that this will be done, the testimonial portion, will be

4 today, and I believe, unless the committee has other requests,

5 that that will be the extent of the investigation.

6 MS. TRASK: Thank you for that clarification.

7 Additional question.

8 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

9 MS. TRASK: This one for the witness. (Employee),

10 were you asked how you wanted this conversation with Senator

11 Frye-Mueller handled?

12 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

13 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

14 EMPLOYEE: No.

15 MS. TRASK: And do you know who made the decision to

16 make the conversation between you and Senator Frye-Mueller a

17 public spectacle?

18 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I'm going to decline to pose that

19 question. She's already said that she had given the statement.

20 If you are referring to the written statement, she gave that to

21 a supervisor and was not part of the decision after that point

22 on when to release that. If you have a follow-up on that

23 point, I'll allow it.

24 MS. TRASK: One additional. Do you appreciate the

25 Senate's handling of this matter to date?

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 20

1 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

2 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

3 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I will give you the choice to

4 answer that question. You are not required to.

5 EMPLOYEE: Thank you, Mr. Chair, but I would decline.

6 MS. TRASK: No further. (Brief pause)

7 MR. HAUGAARD: Another question, Mr. Chair.

8 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

9 MR. HAUGAARD: I'm wondering, (employee), if there was

10 any discussion or offer or opportunity for you to have a

11 conversation with staff or with others present to address this

12 with Senator Frye-Mueller.

13 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

14 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

15 EMPLOYEE: No.

16 MR. HAUGAARD: Just to clarify, did anyone in your

17 office offer or suggest maybe there's an opportunity to clear

18 this up?

19 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

20 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

21 EMPLOYEE: No.

22 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair, in light of the fact that we

23 have no access to employee records, we have not had an

24 opportunity for any discovery, we have essentially been denied

25 information until yesterday, when it was available four days

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 21

1 before that, we have no further questions at this time. But I

2 would reserve the right to have additional questions asked as

3 this investigation proceeds.

4 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Any further recall of a witness

5 would be within the committee's discretion, but it is I believe

6 the intent of the committee to take all testimony today, and so

7 there would not be any further opportunities for testimony

8 beyond today.

9 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair, I'm beginning to understand

10 that this is a situation where we have been denied access to

11 information, we are now being denied access to employee records

12 to identify whether the testimony is correct or not. We are

13 denied details about this to adequately investigate it

14 ourselves and put up any kind of a defense to the allegations.

15 And I just want it to be clear that I have made the

16 request, but no one has responded to my request for

17 information, and now you are telling me that we have no right

18 to review anything, other than to sit here with a piece of

19 paper, no previous information about past actions, and that's

20 all we are going to get. Is that correct, Mr. Chair?

21 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: The committee is conducting an

22 investigation. This is not a civil action in which there are

23 motions for discovery or such. The committee is in charge of

24 the nature of the investigation. If the committee wants to

25 review files or records, it has that ability. The documents

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 22

1 that counsel had sent to the committee yesterday were captioned

2 as in a case, as in a federal case, and so frankly thought it

3 was more in relation to the federal filing that had been made

4 that same day and were not understood to be requests as part of

5 this investigation.

6 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair, if I might respond to that.

7 There was no federal heading on that. You are an attorney, you

8 can see the caption. I simply indicated, because there is no

9 other option, I indicated in the Senate of the State of South

10 Dakota, and this is -- you are essentially putting my client on

11 trial as though it's a criminal event, and you are denying us

12 access to all this information, and you are giving us a couple

13 hours of opportunity to try to put up some sort of a defense.

14 That is not a just process, and we are simply asking for

15 information.

16 From my perspective, this ought to be a reinstatement

17 until there is an adequate investigation done and an

18 opportunity for us to actually put up a defense. And I'm

19 simply making that point, and I sent those documents to you.

20 Those were not filed in federal court. Those were simply

21 provided to you with a clear heading that says in the Senate,

22 State of South Dakota, no other opportunity to frame it, put a

23 heading on it. It seemed like it should be clear enough, at

24 least to the attorneys involved, that they would understand

25 this is a request to the Senate, because you are sitting here

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 23

1 as the judge and jury of this event.

2 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I would just let you know that you

3 did caption it in the Senate, but then with a caption that was

4 identical in terms of the parties to the federal action, and

5 they were posed as resolutions with whereas clauses and a

6 resolve at the end, as if they were meant to be resolutions

7 that would be moved in the Senate in some way. And no Senator

8 brought a request to make those motions or pose those requests

9 to the body. I have not yet heard anybody do so, and so no

10 action has been taken on any of those requests.

11 As to access to the employee record, again, that is in

12 the committee's discretion. Again, this is not an action in

13 which discovery rules would apply or that we would allow a

14 fishing expedition into her employee record. The intent is not

15 to investigate the actions or the history of the employee, but

16 it is in fact to investigate the conduct of Senator Julie

17 Frye-Mueller. And unless you have some indication that there

18 will be some relevant information for the committee inside that

19 file, you can make that proffer to the committee, but simply

20 asking for a copy of her employee record I believe would be

21 simply a fishing expedition.

22 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair.

23 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

24 MR. HAUGAARD: Given that level of investigation, what

25 would you expect in a criminal trial to be the result when the

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 24

1 judge is denying counsel access to any information? You know,

2 this is a process that you are trying to work through, and I've

3 been in these situations before where there is an effort to

4 shield witnesses from any and all cross-examination and to

5 shelter the individual that's making allegations, only to find

6 out later that maybe we should have had some more information.

7 And in this case, it's not even that gracious.

8 We have been given 24 hours to put up some sort of a

9 defense, and now you are denying us access to relevant

10 information in regard to credibility, and that's all we have,

11 is the opportunity to address credibility. I just don't

12 understand how you can sit here as judge and jury without

13 giving opportunity for this kind of access and to expedite like

14 you have done.

15 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Your comment is noted. Are there

16 any further questions for the witness? I will open it up to

17 the committee, if the counsel questions happen to prompt any

18 other questioning. Senator Tobin.

19 SENATOR TOBIN: Had you been offered the ability to

20 meet with the Senator, do you think there would have been a

21 possible ability to clear this all up in that discussion?

22 MR. HAUGAARD: Mr. Chair. If we are treating this

23 like a criminal case, I'd say objection, calls for speculation.

24 But I don't know what our process is here.

25 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: This is, just to clear it up

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 25

1 procedurally, this is not a criminal or civil proceeding. This

2 is an investigation by a committee. We are running it like a

3 committee, a legislative committee. I will allow objections in

4 the form of raised issues regarding questions. The question

5 does call for speculation as to what would have happened, and

6 so I am hesitant to pose that to the witness because I don't

7 know that it's necessarily relevant or helpful to the

8 investigation. Any other questions? I would offer if either

9 Mr. Hieb or (employee) want to make any final statements to the

10 committee.

11 MR. HIEB: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to,

12 since there have been enough questions asked about my client's,

13 whether she's being candid or telling the truth, I would like

14 to ask a few questions, with the Chair's permission. Is that

15 okay?

16 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Just to clarify, it's your intent

17 to ask your client questions?

18 MR. HIEB: Yes, to clarify things.

19 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: We will run those through the

20 Chair.

21 MR. HIEB: Yes. Mr. Chair, I have looked at some of

22 the social media that I told my client to quit looking at, and

23 one of the suggestions was that the reason Senator Frye-Mueller

24 came to her that day was to talk about a bill involving

25 vaccination and that the conversation or the lecture that she

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 26

1 ended up getting about vaccination was a likely segue from

2 that. What I would like to ask the witness is what the bill

3 was about that she was talking to her about that day.

4 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

5 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. The bill was on license plates.

6 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair, another question. At any point

7 in this encounter with Senator Frye-Mueller, was there anything

8 about vaccination or breast feeding bills that were being

9 discussed?

10 EMPLOYEE: No.

11 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair. And when you said before that

12 the reason this bothered you particularly because it dealt with

13 your son, could you elaborate for the committee on why that is?

14 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. My husband and I (health

15 information), it was a miracle, to say the least. And then

16 during my pregnancy, (health information), and thankfully I was

17 able to give birth to a beautiful, healthy son, and that's

18 especially why it was so painful to hear that he -- due to my

19 parental decisions, he could die.

20 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair, just briefly. There's been some

21 question about your involvement with this matter getting to

22 this level, and I just want to make it clear for the record,

23 have you talked to anyone in Senate leadership about this

24 matter?

25 EMPLOYEE: No.

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 27

1 MR. HIEB: And you talked to your mother-in-law, as I

2 understand it, about reporting this, and then you went to

3 the -- which supervisor did you go to?

4 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. Sue Cichos. She's the deputy

5 director for the LRC.

6 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair. Why did you go to Sue?

7 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. Because of the nature of what

8 had happened, I wanted to talk to a woman.

9 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair. Was it Ms. Cichos's idea to

10 take it further than that?

11 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. Yes.

12 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair. Did you have any input or

13 suggestion about taking it past the point where you gave this

14 statement to Ms. Cichos?

15 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

16 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

17 EMPLOYEE: No.

18 MR. HIEB: Finally, Mr. Chair. Have you, to anyone in

19 this body or anybody in your office, been suggesting or rooting

20 for any sort of an outcome in this Senate investigation?

21 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: I am going to give you the same

22 opportunity I did before. You can choose to answer that

23 question if you want to.

24 EMPLOYEE: Can you say that question again?

25 MR. HIEB: Have you suggested to anyone in this body

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 28

1 or anyone in the office that you work in that you are rooting

2 for some sort of an outcome here?

3 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair. No.

4 MR. HIEB: I have nothing further, Mr. Chair.

5 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Thank you. Does that prompt any

6 other questions from the committee or counsel?

7 MR. HIEB: Mr. Chair.

8 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

9 MR. HIEB: There's also been some, because of all the

10 requests for employment files, I would like to clear that up to

11 insure that my client isn't hiding anything. Mr. Chair, with

12 your permission.

13 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

14 MR. HIEB: Have you ever made a claim that somebody

15 has harassed you in the work place, whether it be sexually,

16 vaccination wise, breast feeding wise, et cetera?

17 EMPLOYEE: Mr. Chair.

18 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Go ahead.

19 EMPLOYEE: No.

20 MR. HIEB: That's all I have.

21 CHAIRMAN WHEELER: Again, any further questions from

22 committee or counsel? Seeing none, I want to thank (employee)

23 for coming and providing her testimony today. The committee

24 greatly appreciates you going through this process with us.

25 And with that, is there any other discussion for the committee?

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 29

1 Otherwise we will recess and say we will take a 10-, 15-minute

2 recess. 10 minutes. So we will -- let's reconvene in 10

3 minutes up in room 414.

4 (Whereupon, the proceedings were concluded at 6:07

5 p.m.)

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235
 30

1 C E R T I F I C A T E

3 STATE OF SOUTH DAKOTA )

) ss.
4 COUNTY OF HUGHES )

5 I, Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR, Freelance Court

6 Reporter for the State of South Dakota, residing in Pierre,

7 South Dakota, do hereby certify:

8 That I was duly authorized to and did report the

9 testimony and evidence in the above-entitled cause;

10 I further certify that the foregoing pages of this

11 transcript represents a true and accurate transcription of my

12 stenotype notes.

13 Dated this 1st day of February 2023.

14

15

16

17 /s/ Carla A. Bachand

18 Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

Freelance Court Reporter
19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Carla A. Bachand, RMR, CRR

pcbachand@[Link]/605.222.4235