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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 11:14 #1

Black-Powder Rocket Motors
ned
This is the article chronicling my most recent explorations into these
basic, traditional rocket motors. For me, personally, there have been
some recent developments and information which have led to my
increased comfort with the performance and consistency of these
motors.

Online Tom Rebenklau's info about his motor-making methods.

Dave Forster's tube-waxing process.
Last seen: 2 min A way to center the spindle in the motor, based on Dave's initial
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idea.
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A generous rocketeer's recommendation to try the particular cat-
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Thanks to Kurt Medlin for permission to use his fine illustrations from
his rocket seminar worksheet.

I really like the long-duration "whoosh", and long-hanging charcoal-

spark tail, from a good, nozzled BP motor.

I need to emphasize that the methods detailed here do not necessarily

produce the most-powerful BP motors possible, but they do lead to
nice, even, consistent results, with lifting capabilities which are reliable
and predictable. To me, that's very important when mounting a nice
cylinder-shell heading, which I have hours in the construction of, atop a
motor.

I've included this spec sheet which condenses the information I need, to
determine which motor size to make, and what details to use when
making it.
Following Paul's nice lead, I'm including some more-comprehensive
videos for this project.

0:00 /
 0:00 /

I'll be adding videos of an arbor-pressed 7/8" motor, and a power-

pressed 1-1/2" motor.

Enjoy, and please holler with any questions, comments, or corrections.

I've not gone back to proofread the article yet, so there may still be
some typos in it.

ned

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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 11:17 #2

sjm90048 Thx Ned. Gonna digest this today

".... Only one way to find out...." Ned G

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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 11:26 #3

Steve11 I've been waiting for this Ned, ever since I heard you were going to
make it. I look forward to your final results. Your contribution to this
hobby and site is just great man. Along with all the others that came
before you and those that you know help. Just great. Steve

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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 11:28 #4

ned Thanks, guys. This is exactly the info I'd need if I was just starting out in
rocketeering, and is really the info I need right now. Good luck with your
rockets.

ned

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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 14:15 #5

FlaMtnBkr I skimmed the article but can't watch the videos yet, so I may have
Offline missed it. But how do you center the spindle in the tube? I have
Last seen: 1 hour encountered that problem quite a bit and haven't found a good way to
1 min ago prevent it. Many times it will appear centered and then after the first
Joined: increment the spindle will be closer to one side which makes finishing
11/24/2012 - the motor difficult or impossible depending on how off it is.
10:49 Just curious if there is a trick. Thanks.
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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 16:31 #6

ned That trick is in the first vid, Fla. It's also covered in this thread.

ned

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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 17:37 #7

sjm90048 Sure is good timing on putting this article out Ned. Thanks bud.
Already used your data sheet.. :)

".... Only one way to find out...." Ned G

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Sun, 03/09/2014 - 18:05 #8

ned Cool, Scott.

ned

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Mon, 03/10/2014 - 10:19 #9

ned Here is the vid of an arbor-pressed 7/8" nozzled BP motor:

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 09:38 #10

ned And, power-pressing a 1.5" BP motor:

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:12 #11

VikingPyrotechnics
I wonder all the time how you manage to press your motors without a
support sleeve? I would say that my tubes I have are of good quality,
but I need a support sleeve. I have no pressure measurement capsule
from Wolter / Smith, so I have to rely on it what my pressure gauge tells
me that was already installed on my press.
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by the way, that's what I call a motor. And i like your Press !
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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:14 #12

ned Thanks, Vike. The trick to pressing without a support sleeve is keeping
the pressure below certain limits, and releasing the pressure
immediately. It is convenient to not use a support, but with other
propellants like whistle and strobe, where higher pressures are
needed, a support becomes a necsssity. One can certainly be used
with these BP motors, too.

ned
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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:16 #13

davidh Might I suggest ditching the funnels and making scoops instead.
Offline They're faster and more accurate. You can also make one for each
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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:21 #14

ned That would be an option to ponder, David. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks.

ned

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:24 #15

VikingPyrotechnics
ok thank you

I always have concerns that the fuel is then too loose in the tube and the
rocket CATO... As soon as my new tool from Ben is here I'll probably
test a bit if I get it to go with out a support sleeve
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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:48 #16

ned If I have a Ben or Wolter support, Vike, they are very easy to use, and I
do so, typically. With some size motors, though, especially the larger
ones, I don't have such supports, only PVC/bandclamp ones, and they
are often a pain to use. So, I wanted to see if, with these BP motors, I
could show them being used without a support. It is quicker and easier
that way. The nice, strong NEPTubes can withstand a lot of pressure
without being damaged. It's just a matter of determining their limits.
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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 11:57 #17

sjm90048 Wow Ned you went nuts in your bp rocket work. Sure helped me a lot
able to visualize the 2 types of press and there functions. I want one..
Lol And again.. Perfect timing. This opens up and whole new world of
fireworking :)). Thanks for making the vids..

".... Only one way to find out...." Ned G

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 14:29 #18

Shawn Hi Ned,
Ashbaugh
I now understand your problem of keeping the spindle centered in the
tube.

I hope to see some of your 6 lb. BP monsters this year.

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 14:31 #19

ned Sure thing, Scott. I'm glad the info was useful.

ned

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 19:17 #20

Steve11 One thing Ned did you wipe off the lubricant after you spray or does it
really matter? Steve

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 19:33 #21

ned That lube dries dry with no residue, Steve, so there's no need to wipe it
off once it has been sprayed on.

ned

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 21:39 #22

evenstevn Fantastic Ned-thank you!

"....striving for more substance and less semblance...."

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Tue, 03/11/2014 - 23:54 #23

Dan D. I like how you have a "to scale" drawing of your tooling/motor next to
Online you... great, easy way to double check measurements and such. I use
Last seen: 12 CAD software at work, and will be doing the same with some drawings
min 39 sec ago for each motor I frequently use.
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Great stuff, thanks.
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Wed, 03/12/2014 - 03:39 #24

Paul Moulder Great tutorial and info Ned, I have 3/4 and 1 inch NEPT tubes as well
as tooling for 3/4 core burners and 1 inch end burners alI I need now is
a stick.

I have had this tooling for almost 2 years and never used it. First rocket
coming soon :)

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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 09:12 #25

ned A couple vids on fusing a motor, and attaching a heading and stick:

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0:00 /

0:00 /

Enjoy the Dark Side, Paul. It's a lot of fun.

ned

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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 10:34 #26

sjm90048 Very cool vids.. Thanks for making all those! What do u recommend to
use as a prime/passfire for someone who has no black match.. ? Until
I figure out how to make black match.. Thank you..

".... Only one way to find out...." Ned G

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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 11:11 #27

ned Blackmatch is such an important staple in this work, Scott.... If you don't
have any quickmatch to harvest it from, I'd suggest making some
blackmatch of your own.

ned

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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 12:29 #28

sjm90048 Yup, had a feeling you were gonna say that.. Guess I know what I'm
gonna starting to think about and start gathering the materials. Looks
like a fun challenging project..

".... Only one way to find out...." Ned G

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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 13:15 #29

aliandarran If you can make all of those fantastic gerbs and wheels it will be no
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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 14:13 #30

sjm90048 Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad u like some of the things I have
learned. It's been a blast. That means a lot Darren. There is no
doubt I can make this and make it well, but like anything else when u do
it the first time,it's challenging, and u make errors.. Lots of em.. Well at
least I do! Haha. Looking forward to it.. I'm starting to track down
some of the supplies. String ect.. I never needed black match in any
of my small projects before this point. Now I'm ready for using it :)
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Fri, 03/14/2014 - 21:59 #31

GSmith ned wrote:
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If I have a Ben or Wolter support, Vike, they are very
Last seen: 2 days easy to use, and I do so, typically. With some size
16 hours ago motors, though, especially the larger ones, I don't have
Joined: such supports, only PVC/bandclamp ones, and they
01/20/2014 - are often a pain to use. So, I wanted to see if, with
09:03 these BP motors, I could show them being used
Posts: 45 without a support. It is quicker and easier that way.
The nice, strong NEPTubes can withstand a lot of
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pressure without being damaged. It's just a matter of
determining their limits.

Ned, had you pressed motors like these, without a support sleeve,
before using the waxed tubes?

It seems to me that without the side wall friction, the pressing energy
that was lost trying to overcome it, is now better consolidating the
comp, with even less pressure being applied. The waxed tubes open
up a bunch of possibilities, variables, and good ole what if’s. I have
questions that I have not yet fully formulated …but one obvious one is,,,
just how far can I push the length of my nozzless spindle now before
boom sets in???

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Sat, 03/15/2014 - 09:15 #32

ned No, Gary, I was pretty much a "use a support if the press is being used"
guy. But, I decided to play with no supports in this project, to see how
easily it could be done, and to see what the pressure limits were for the
various size NEPTubes. Now that you mention it, I could easily see how
the waxing helps with all that, with the downward force being applied to
the comp and not the tube, which was formerly grabbed by the tube
before the lower levels of the comp were consolidated. Probably
Online another benefit of the waxing.

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57 sec ago You have the lathe.....you can "push the limits".....
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Sat, 03/15/2014 - 20:56 #33

Dave F First off, I'm blown away with all the work that Ned has done to help us
all make better rockets! What a great resource this article is, especially
for the newborns that need to see how it is all done. Plenty for
experienced rocket makers too!

Anyhow, Gary's question got me to do a simple test. I took some

leftover hot balsa BP, granulated with alcohol and made a motor. It was
Offline a 1# nozzleless motor on custom BP tooling with a 6 1/2" long spindle
(on the long tapered section). I lit it with j-hooked visco. There was 90
Last seen: 7 grams of fuel consumed. Here's the result:
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With a spindle this long on such a skinny motor, I figured I would try to
make sure it is centred in the beginning by installing a tiny brass tube
up inside the brass drift. It worked well. Here's a picture of it, as best I
could do.
 It looks off centre but it is not. As you can see, there are steps in the
hole in the drift. The little sideways mark right in the bottom of the hole
is light shining in from the side holes. I had the Duke drill all the way
through to the drift removal holes. This way the impact of an accident
'might' be less, and air can get out easily.

The permanent value of the truth far outweighs any temporary embarrassment or
inconvenience it might cause.

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Sat, 03/15/2014 - 23:44 #34

Bobosan Great tutorial vids, Ned!

I am a bit reluctant to use steel wool to clean the rammers and have
been using a scrubbie to do this.

Really appreciate your efforts!

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Sun, 03/16/2014 - 10:08 #35

ned Thanks, guys. Enjoy the rocket making.

ned

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Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:53 #36

Jake I'm a little late getting here, but I too am really enjoying this article!!

Thanks for all the time you put into it, pops.

I'm getting a hankering to make somethin'......

Jake ~ The Rocket Boy

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Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:07 #37

Maserface In one part of the video you mention that the arbor press is great for bp
because it immediately takes the pressure, I notice that my whistle
compresses rather slowly, would I be better off with a small hydraulic
press than an arbor for small whistles/strobes?

-turn up-
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Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:05 #38

ned It's pretty easy to apply the pressure for a bit longer with the arbor
press, Mase, just by hanging on the handle a bit longer, so, as long as
you can apply enough force with it (whistle wants more pressure than
does BP..), you'd still be OK with the arbor press.

ned

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Thu, 03/20/2014 - 01:08 #39

Maserface thanks, Ned, I have been obsessed with 4oz rockets of all types, and
 that arbor press seems to be much MUCH faster than my bottle jack
press. A 4ton or so power press would be pretty handy as well.

-turn up-

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Thu, 03/20/2014 - 01:31 #40

Paul G.
Maserface wrote:

thanks, Ned, I have been obsessed with 4oz rockets of

all types, and that arbor press seems to be much
MUCH faster than my bottle jack press. A 4ton or so
power press would be pretty handy as well.
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hours 23 min ago I've been thinking about getting an Arbor press for inserts, comets, and
maybe 4oz rockets. But today, I was browsing a local goodwill store
Joined:
02/23/2014 - and came across a brand new Chief, 2" bore, 6" stroke, 3000psi
21:17 cylinder for $15! Now I can make a small all thread press for those
Posts: 112 items. I already have some 6" channel, and I'll just use quick connects
with my power pack to quickly switch between my big press and my
Send PM small one. :D ezpz

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Thu, 03/20/2014 - 01:33 #41

Maserface
Paul G. wrote:
 Offline
Maserface wrote:
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thanks, Ned, I have been obsessed
Joined: with 4oz rockets of all types, and that
07/07/2013 - arbor press seems to be much
14:28
MUCH faster than my bottle jack
Posts: 289 press. A 4ton or so power press
Send PM would be pretty handy as well.

I've been thinking about getting an Arbor press for

inserts, comets, and maybe 4oz rockets. But today, I
was browsing a local goodwill store and came across
a brand new Chief, 2" bore, 6" stroke, 3000psi
cylinder for $15! Now I can make a small all thread
press for those items. I already have some 6" channel,
and I'll just use quick connects with my power pack to
quickly switch between my big press and my small
one. :D ezpz

I hate you right now. :P

-turn up-

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Thu, 03/20/2014 - 11:07 #42

mgarrett Paul, you will almost certainly want to limit the hydraulic fluid flow on that
itty bitty cylinder. Otherwise you will spend all your time at the two ends:
fully retracted to fully extended in the blink of an eye. Consider getting
a flow control valve and mount it near the power pack so it will work with
all of your future presses. I wish I had thought of that earlier as my flow
control valve is on the cylinder. On the other hand it only adds a few $$
worth of fittings plus the cost of a valve.
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Thu, 03/20/2014 - 11:16 #43

ned I'm curious about what you are saying there, Mike. I have a 1" cylinder
on my smaller powered press, which I use mostly for 'dola drivers, and
no flow control valve on my pump. The cylinder moves quickly, but not
too much so, and I like its fast action. I wouldn't imagine Paul's 2"
cylinder moving too quickly, then, if his pack's flow rate is the same as
mine. I do like having the pressure-adjustment valve, though, for sure.

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0:00 /

** Please note Lloyd's valid concerns about the foot-switch operation,

stated in that thread.

ned

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Thu, 03/20/2014 - 23:06 #44

mgarrett Ned,
 What is the hydraulic fluid flow capacity of your power pack in gpm? That
might be the reason you are comfortable with your setup. After watching the
video it looks like your ram isn’t moving too fast. In a nutshell there are
typically two things that determine how fast the ram travels. First is power
pack pumping capacity and second is the size of the cylinder (volume of fluid
that must enter or leave during movement). A third thing to consider for a
press is your comfort with the speed you get from a given setup.
Offline
Last seen: 10 When I first hooked up my press I noticed some moving and “jumping” of the
hours 47 min ago entire frame when I started and stopped the hydraulic fluid flow. It occurred
Joined: to me that there were significant and abrupt momentum changes in my system
12/11/2012 - relative to the mass of the press frame. The press frame was light enough to
13:26 move around due to those sudden momentum changes. Reducing the fluid
Posts: 172 flow rate fixed the movement problem. I could have secured the press frame
to a big heavy work table but that would defeat the portable nature of the
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system. Taming the fluid flow rate achieved two goals for me with very little
extra weight; it has less tendency for the frame to move and I am comfortable
with the ram speed. As always, YMMV.

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Fri, 03/21/2014 - 09:10 #45

ned What is the hydraulic fluid flow capacity of your power pack in gpm?

_______________________

I honestly don't know, Mike. I have a Monarch Dyna Jack #M 3554 pump, and
have found the technical manual for their pumps, but there seem to be so
many options listed, with GPM flows between 1 and 3.5 gpm, that I can't really
tell what my pump might be putting out. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Online
Last seen: 2 min Bottom line, for me, with this pump, I'm pleased with the way my presses
57 sec ago work, but I hear what you're saying about the issues with yours that you did
Joined: address with the flow control.
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22:55 ned

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Fri, 03/21/2014 - 18:20 #46

Dodad Great series Ned! This clarifies a lot. Makes it easier to understand
Offline everything. I'm curious tho, after all the work cleaning your charcoal of
Last seen: 4 ferous metal. It looks like you could get bits of steel wool in your comps
hours 20 min ago when you are cleaning the rammers?
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Fri, 03/21/2014 - 18:52 #47

ned I'm not worried about a few thin strands of steel in a rocket comp, DoD.
My concern with sparking metals in charcoal stems from the fact that
the charcoal may be bound for the ballmill, mixed in an "explosive"
composition such as BP.

And, Thanks.

ned
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Sat, 03/22/2014 - 03:56 #48

Dodad OK, that makes sense. I was thinking that bronze wool would work too
Offline although it is expensive. Again, I really do appreciate your work here.
Last seen: 4 You are a great (and patient) instructor.
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Fri, 03/28/2014 - 15:49 #49

stevenjohannessen
One option I would add for those who might be interested. I have a
Offline rubber O ring on each of my rammers. I can push it to the bottom of the
Last seen: 2 rammer before I insert it into the tube which reduces the amount of dust
weeks 3 days ago when putting the rammer in or when pressing it. Alternatively, I can
Joined: have it at the top of the tube with the rammer in, remove the rammer,
12/14/2012 - add and press an increment, and the distance from the tube will tell me
17:25 how big the pressed increment is.
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Just a thought.
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Fri, 03/28/2014 - 16:13 #50

ned Yep, I agree, Steve. The o-rings come in handy in a couple different
ways.

ned

ned@[Link]

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in
them." We don't, and won't.
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Fri, 03/28/2014 - 19:17 #51

Jake Steve,

A couple different times, pops has mentioned using those O rings, and
how he really liked 'em. But I never realized how helpful they would be,
until he gave me some and I tried them out. Boy do they ever come in
handy!!
 Jake ~ The Rocket Boy

Ned's Human Go-Getter

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