Sky News Australian Agenda Scott Morrison 9 December 2012
Interview with Scott Morrison Australian Agenda program, 9 December 2012 Peter van Onselen: We're joined by Shadow Immigration Spokesperson Scott Morrison who's recently back from Nauru and of course we know that arrivals are creeping up on about 18,000 by boat for this year. Shadow Minister, thanks very much for your company. Scott Morrison: Thanks Peter. Peter van Onselen: Let me ask you, you've been to Nauru, it's filling up. Elements of the Coalition's policy have been adopted in terms of the usage of Nauru, the Government's own version of temporary protection visas. What's seriously left for an Abbott Government to send the kind of strong message that does, in fact, stop the boats? Scott Morrison: Well, the Government haven't introduced temporary protection visas. They've introduced a bridge to permanent residency visa, and Nauru has been established but it is already full with the temporary facility of just under 400 people that are there currently. The issues that remain are temporary protection visas. The issues that remain are turning boats back where it's safe to do so. The issue that remains is a single-minded focus on deterrents within the region rather than the regional processing of people which is dragging people into the region in Indonesia and Malaysia which we don't support that sort of approach in the region and the differences resolve. I mean, this Government passed the point of no return on their failures on border protection some time ago and they have the Midas touch in reverse on this issue and I think most people know it, particularly smugglers and those wanting to come to Australia on boats. I mean, we now effectively have a visa-first-ask-questions-later policy from this Government and we saw that with the kissing of bridging visas by those that arrived since August the 13th this year. Paul Kelly:
Australian Agenda 9 December 2012 Scott Morrison
If we can just focus on Nauru, you've just been to Nauru, so how bad is the situation in terms of the conditions for asylum seekers? A number are on hunger strikes. There have been reports of mental health problems. So what's your view about how bad the situation is? Scott Morrison: The temporary facility is challenging. It's intense, and it's not just those living in the facility who are in tente. There's around seven Australian - 70 Australian staff are also living in tents and it's important they get to a permanent facility as quickly as possible. One of my disappointments is the delays in getting even construction under way on a permanent facility which still hasn't commenced as of now. It should in the next couple of weeks. On the mental health issues I met with the mental health staff that were there. I mean, the incidents that are being talked about are only a small number of people. The vast majority of the incidents are protest activity as was described to me by mental health staff on the island. I mean, there are people there who are trying to bring the place down. That's their intent. And a very worrying... Paul Kelly: Who are those people? Scott Morrison: It's largely Iranian group which is a small group within the overall facility. Paul Kelly: How many? Scott Morrison: It would be less than a dozen who are actively involved... Paul Kelly: And what are they doing. Scott Morrison: ...in protest activity. Oh, they've got minor incidents of self-harm. They've sought to disrupt and intimidate other people living in the facility to get them to join protests and they're being encouraged and I'd say geed up by people back here in Australia, activists and others. And these people need to be very careful because that situation over there can fall apart quite easily if this sort of behaviour is condoned and encouraged. Paul Kelly: So your charge is that there is intimidation going on... Scott Morrison:
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That was the report to me. Paul Kelly: ...inside the facility. Scott Morrison: That was the report to me directly, asylum seekers who are in that facility, that at night they're intimidated both physically and otherwise, verbally, to get them to join protests. Now, it's a small number of people who are trying to act up in that facility. Peter van Onselen: And they're yet to be categorised. Is that correct? They haven't yet had their status... Scott Morrison: No, processing was only just getting under way when I was there and the Nauruan Government has got their framework in place. And I think getting the processing under way is an important next step. Once you enter the process then people's minds are engaged in the process, and I think it's important they get to a yes or a no as soon as they possibly can. And that's always been our position. Paul Maley: Just on the question of processing, the processing on Nauru is done under Nauruan law which is quite at odds with the way you would do it, your Coalition policy. Where does that leave you? I mean, would you dismantle this system that is being set up now in Nauru for that sort of two-stop process that you've described where you get a single decision and then a single point of review and that's it? Scott Morrison: You're right Paul, that is how we wanted to do it and the Nauruan Government following some of the recommendations out of the Houston panel have gone down a different path. Now, they're a sovereign country, they can set up how they're going to process, how they wish to do that. So had we been involved in discussing these matters with them then maybe we would have ended up in a different place, but if we're elected next year then I imagine how that processing arrangement is working and the appeal system that sits around that is a discussion we might have with them. But for now that processing will be put in place and what they will have to do, and they know this, is they have to gear up their capacity and their legal system to consider the matters that will come through. But remember an appeal under Nauruan law will be very different to one under Australian law. I mean, the gambit of migration law in Nauru is quite restricted. It's not the open-ended set of both common and statutory law we have here in Australia which I think opens up the opportunity for gaming the system, that I don't think will be present in Nauru but we will look carefully at how that process goes over the next six, nine months before an election and if we think we need
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to have a discussion about it then we will. But ultimately that's a sovereign matter for the Nauruans. Paul Maley: But you might petition the Nauruans to dismantle that process in favour of the one that you've advocated. Scott Morrison: What we'll do is what I just said and that is we'll see how it now transpires over the next sort of nine months and the key issue is the outcome, and that is you get to a final decision and that people have that decision, whether it's a no or a yes, and then you have to take the next decision. I don't think we should be using the processing system as a way of extending someone's stay on Nauru. If people are going to stay on Nauru, which it is the Government's policy and was our policy when we were in Government, then you need to deal with their post-assessment base after a decision has been made. I mean, the reason 30% of people went back from the Pacific Solution is they'd had a clear answer and they could make the next decision. Paul Kelly: But if we just look at the facility, I mean, you've just been there. The critical question is: are you confident that Nauru can work in the longer term as a facility where asylum seekers may well be kept for a long period of time? Are you confident all that's viable? Scott Morrison: Look, I am, but not the way the Government's running it. I mean... Paul Kelly: How would you change it? Scott Morrison: I think there are two issues there. Obviously you've got to get to a permanent facility. Continuing with their temporary facilities is not the Government's plan either and they need to get that as soon as possible. The facility that they will build I don't think will be a facility for the long term, for someone to spend several years on the island and I think there will be issues of them spending time in that facility under Nauruan law which has a Bill of Rights. And so there will - the Government does need to give thought to the accommodation arrangements for people post-assessment, after they've received a yes or a no, and particularly a yes. So that's an issue for the Government. There is also no family accommodation on the island currently. I've seen the site for the family facility. It's not my preferred site. The site theyre building the permanent facility on is not my preferred site. Paul Kelly:
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Okay, so you're clearly unhappy. You are clearly unhappy from what you've just said with the arrangements being made by the Nauruan Government? Scott Morrison: No, I'm unhappy with the way that the Government - our Government has proceeded with that. They're the ones who have put the facilities where they have put them. The Nauruan Government have done a good job on their end of the arrangement which is to get a processing framework in place. Paul Kelly: If this is a permanent facility and we get a change of Government and we get an Abbott Government coming in, will you change the location of the permanent facility which you've indicated you're not happy with? Scott Morrison: Well, the permanent facility for long-term arrangements I don't think will be satisfactory. Paul Kelly: What do you do about that then? Scott Morrison: You'll hear more about that from us, Paul, between now and the next election. Peter van Onselen: Just on... Scott Morrison: I'm not about to announce that here on your program. Peter van Onselen: You mean you're going to build more buildings or something, is that the... Paul Kelly: But I mean, clearly you're not going to - I mean, clearly from what you've said you don't accept it. Scott Morrison: What I'm saying is the permanent facility that they are going to build which can deal with the immediate processing arrangements, and it can deal with that, it's not where I would have put it, but that's where they've decided to put it. It will hold 900 people and it can deal with people I think while they're going through the processing arrangements. The issue the Government has is they haven't even thought about - I
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mean they announce a no-advantage policy and they have no idea how that's going to work in practice or how they're going to accommodate people based on that... Peter van Onselen: Can I jump in and ask you... Scott Morrison: So they do need to address that and they haven't even thought about it which is no surprise because they were dragged kicking and screaming to do this. I mean, I leave there with one of two impressions. Either they're setting it up to fail or they just don't know what they're doing. Peter van Onselen: Scott Morrison, can I just jump in and ask, you say we'll hear more about what you would do ahead of the next election. Scott Morrison: Sure. Peter van Onselen: Isn't this, of all political issues, one not to play politics with and hold policy back until the next election? Everybody tells us... Scott Morrison: Why would you assume that was my motive? Peter van Onselen: I'm just assuming because you say we're going to hear more. It's either that or you haven't yet formulated it. I assume you've formulated it so why can't we hear about it? Scott Morrison: I got back from Nauru on Wednesday. I've seen the circumstances first hand. Peter van Onselen: You've been to Nauru before. You must know what needs to happen. Scott Morrison: I do know what needed to happen on the first occasion. What the Government has now done is gone down a different path. I've seen those arrangements. I have a good understanding of what the situation is there now. I'd wanted to go there some months ago but the Government frustrated that and we had to make this trip from private arrangements, which is fine. Peter van Onselen:
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So this trip has seen you take a view now that is quite different to what your view was before... Scott Morrison: No. Peter van Onselen: ...about what needs to happen at Nauru. Scott Morrison: No, my view about what ultimately needs to happen at Nauru has always been the same. The Government has gone down a different path and if we're elected I think we're going to have to rectify some things up there. Peter van Onselen: But it sounds like you've got new policy... Scott Morrison: No, I will make announcements, together with Tony, between now and the next election on our timing. I'm not about to telegraph those moves to anybody at this point. Peter van Onselen: Why not? Scott Morrison: We've seen the situation on the ground and that's a matter for us. Peter van Onselen: Why not telegraph it? I mean, this is one of those ones where everyone says it's so important to stop the boats. I can't see why you wouldn't just announce it, put the pressure on the Government to do it. Scott Morrison: I don't think anyone can accuse the Coalition of being a policy-free zone in the asylum space. Our policies have been out there and, more importantly, our intent and resolve for over a decade and we have been absolutely rock solid consistent. Now we will make an announcement in our time, not your time. Paul Maley: Just on the question of policy, are you confident that your existing policies will be sufficient to stop the boats. Or can we expect - I'm not asking you to tell me what they are...
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Scott Morrison: Sure. Paul Maley: But can we expect - is it your view that additional measures will now be required given the scale of the problem? Scott Morrison: There's no doubt the problem, Paul, is much worse than it was at the last election, significantly worse. I mean, in the first six months of this year, and this is on the UNHCR facts, we're up 59% on asylum applications. Now, that is more than five times the same rate of the issue globally. It's more than five times it was in the UK, and in Canada they're actually going the other way. So the suggestion that somehow Australia is matching international circumstances is a joke and it's a nonsense. We are right out there on the outlier on this. It's worse than it was over 10 years ago when we last dealt with this problem. Now, already our policies go further than we did when we were last in Government. They already do that. We've already announced additional measures. Now, I don't doubt that over the next nine months when we find out just how bad this mess is, and it has never been this bad, that our resolve is going to have to be even stronger and our policy measures are going to have to go further. And I don't think anyone is going to doubt though our resolve to do that. At the end of the day this is a question of will and our will on this is proven. Paul Kelly: But is it just a question of will? I mean, I guess on that it's also a question of policy, and the issue here is can you stop the boats? Can any Australian Government stop the boats with some sort of framework of acceptable policies? Scott Morrison: Yeah well, I believe we can Paul, and one of the areas we touched on earlier was particularly the arrangements with Indonesia. As you know, I was up there with Tony not that long ago. And one of the things I flagged in my speech to the Lowy Institute back in August of this year was the need for the regional process to focus singlemindedly and obsessively on deterrents. Now, that's everything from regional patrols, biometric data, training of officers, blue uniforms on the ground, all of this. Now, it's happening at very minor level at the moment. I think that is something that needs a lot more focus from an incoming Government than this Government has given it. I'm not saying they haven't done it. I just don't think it was a big part of their plan. Paul Maley: Sure, but that's... Scott Morrison: This is a big contrast to what they're doing in the region.
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Peter van Onselen: It is. Scott Morrison: What they're doing in the region is saying "We want to set up processing opportunities in the region". Now, if asylum seekers were coming out of our region, being sourced from our region, as it was with the Indo Chinese crisis, well, that may well actually be an answer. But that's not what we're seeing here. What we're seeing here is secondary movement from central Asia and the Middle East. Now, setting up processing hubs in the region is a magnet. We've always said it was a magnet and we don't think the magnet approach is the way to go in the region, and that is a strong contrast with how the Government is seeking to deal with this because if you look at the figures, our numbers aren't the only ones that have spiked. If you look in the Houston report you'll see the spiking in the people coming into Indonesia and Malaysia. Now, we need to stop the planes coming into the region, not just the boats coming into Australia and that's what our policies will be addressing and I think that is the space that you'll continue to see us fill. Now, I'm not going to telecast a lot of that because I am not going to go into operational matters before an election... Peter van Onselen: But without telecasting it... Scott Morrison: Well, much of this is in that space, Peter. Peter van Onselen: Can I just get a broad sense though, because so much has been staked by the Coalition on the fact that it will stop the boats, and you're an MP with perhaps a long way to run in your political career, you're prepared to stake your political career on the same thing that Tony Abbott has said which is that in the first 12 months of an Abbott Government the Coalition will stop the boats. Scott Morrison: What I've said is we're going to throw everything in the kitchen sink at this. Peter van Onselen: But Abbott said... Paul Maley: Abbott's been quite explicit, 12 months. Scott Morrison:
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Yeah, and what you've heard me say very clearly is that we have the policies and resolve to get this job done and I will not cease and I will not rest until that job is done. Now, Tony has outlined a time frame of that order and I can tell you that is the time frame that we will seek and throw everything at to achieve. But what I flag heavily on this is this problem is worse than it has ever been before and the only thing that's going to fix that is a Government that's deadly serious about it. Paul Maley: It sounds to me... Scott Morrison: And this Government is not. Paul Maley: It sounds to me like you are going to need significant additional measures because the scale of the problem that you're facing now is, as you've said, it's three, four times what Howard faced when TPVs... Scott Morrison: True. Paul Maley: ...and Nauru did the job last time. Do you think it's going to do the job a second time and if it's not what sort of additional measures might we see aside from deterrents? Scott Morrison: Well, that's a regional... Paul Maley: The diplomatic focus on deterrents which is a long-term project, is it not? Scott Morrison: It's not just a diplomatic purpose. I don't think it's also a short-term - sorry, a long-term focus. I mean, we have three patrol vessels which the AFP sent up to Indonesia about 18 months ago. When I was up there, when I board each of those vessels they've never patrolled the southern Javan coast, never. Never. And that's what those vessels were sent up there to do. Paul Maley: You can put 10 of them up there. It's not going to stem the flow, as you know. Scott Morrison: Well, we don't have any patrolling the southern Java coast as a result of the cooperative efforts that this Government has tried to pursue. What I detected in
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Indonesia was a strong willingness to work with Australia on this issue, but Australia needs to take more of the lead in driving that. Now, Australia has taken the lead in the region and tried to set up asylum magnets in Indonesia and elsewhere in the region. I don't think they have taken the lead in a single-minded focus on deterrents. I think they've hijacked and diverted the Bali process away from where it needs to be, and my discussions in the region is they want to focus on deterrents and under an Abbott Government that's what they'll get. And I think that is particularly the area where we will see I think a marked improvement on our performance. Paul Kelly: Okay, the question here - the question here in terms of everything you're saying is getting the cooperation of the Indonesian and the Malaysian Governments. Now you've also got this policy of turning the boats around on the water which will clearly antagonise the Indonesian Government so how do you reconcile these two policies? On the one hand what you're talking about is closer and more effective cooperation with Indonesia. On the other hand you're saying "We'll just unilaterally turn the boats back". How does all that work? Scott Morrison: Well, as you know I'm the only one at the table who's actually had a discussion with someone from the Indonesian Government about this, and one of the ways our policy has been misrepresented to the Indonesian Government is that we want to turn the problem back to Indonesia. We don't want to turn the problem back to Indonesia. We want to solve the problem for Indonesia as well, and having a set of arrangements that go well beyond just things that happen on our border and deal with some of the priority issues that Indonesia faces, not just on people smuggling by the way. I mean, the Bali process is about people smuggling, human trafficking and transnational crime, and they have serious concerns particularly in the human trafficking area and the transnational crime area. I mean, one of the things that we're heavily respected for and this is a great credit to the Australian Federal Police, is the work we do on joint law enforcement and the training programs we have in place. Now, there is a big area of opportunity for us to work with Indonesia... Peter van Onselen: Can I ask you about that... Scott Morrison: ...right across this space. Peter van Onselen: Can I ask you about that... Scott Morrison: And you've got to have the conversation in the context of all of that space.
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Peter van Onselen: Scott Morrison, I have had a conversation with a member of the Indonesian Government and they're under the impression that the Coalition if it gets into power will look to do a deal in relation to assisting Indonesia with some of the terrorism concerns that they have from southern Philippines, in that region. Armed military might be involved, police forces federally might be involved in that. Is that part of any deal that the Coalition is looking at if it secures Government? Scott Morrison: Well, I'll leave you to commentate on your conversation. Peter van Onselen: I've had that, but you've obviously had conversations. Has that been... Scott Morrison: I'll talk about my conversations, if I think it is appropriate and not going into the private details of those. But what I just said to Paul was, I mean, these conversations have to take place in a bigger picture, in a broader context. This isn't just about... Peter van Onselen: Is that the sort of thing that's been discussed? Scott Morrison: ...people smuggling from Australia - well, I would never canvass those sorts of private details one way or the other and you should draw no conclusion from that one way or the other. But it is important we have this conversation in the broader context. Paul Kelly: Can we just come back to my question. Will you turn the boats on the water unilaterally? Scott Morrison: We'll turn them back where it's safe to do so, Paul. I couldn't be more clear about it, I couldn't be more insistent about it, and I couldn't have been more direct about it. Paul Kelly: How do you get Indonesia to accept that? Scott Morrison: Well, you'll have to see that in practice, Paul. And at the end of the day, we'll talk about this all day and we'll talk about it between here and the next election and one way we're going to find out is if the Coalition is elected after the next election. Now, I wouldn't be taking that policy to the next election if I didn't think it could be done and
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I've been to Indonesia, I've had the conversations. I wouldn't be pursuing this policy if I didn't think within the broader context of what is the most key relationship that we have that we couldn't achieve it and - but it's not just there. It's also in Sri Lanka, we can turn boats back to Sri Lanka today. The Government's said that they can't do it in Indonesia because the Indonesian Government won't agree. The Sri Lankan Government is asking for assistance to intercept and return vessels in Sri Lanka now. Paul Maley: How would that work? Scott Morrison: Our Government refuses to do it. Paul Maley: How would that work? Describe the sort of deal that a Coalition Government might enter into with the Sri Lankan Government to turn back boats. Would it apply to all Sri Lankan boats coming out of Sri Lanka? Scott Morrison: As you know, I'm heading there at the end of January next year and Julie Bishop and I are both going. We'll meet with the President and a whole range of officials. We'll also go up and visit the Tamil areas in northern Sri Lanka and see things on the ground there. It would be our objective to have an arrangement with Sri Lanka where they had the resources and the capacity to turn all the boats back. That would be our objective. And in the event that boats actually got all the way to Australia, it is our policy to intercept them before they cross the seaboard and arrange for their transfer back to Sri Lanka. Now, that's our policy. It's fairly clear, the Government wouldn't come at that despite the - you know, the open arms of Sri Lanka to do it with them, and now they've gone down another path which was always in the junction waiting to happen and as a result they've got themselves back in the courts and we've got effectively people smugglers deciding who comes here and you've got asylum lawyers deciding who gets sent back. Paul Maley: That's fine, but some of these Sri Lankan refugee claims are being upheld, as in people coming out of Sri Lanka are being recognised as refugees. You're saying you'd turn them back. What sort of safeguards would you put in place, if any, in Sri Lanka to ensure - to ensure those people weren't mistreated? Scott Morrison: That is why you've got to have the engagement with the Sri Lankan Government about people's safe return back to Sri Lanka and that is why when we're there we're going to spend some time independently actually going and seeing things on the ground. In Nauru this week I had - I met with asylum seekers from right across the population of
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that centre and one of the questions I asked was: why did you choose Australia rather than India? And India is a very short trip away where there is actually a Tamil population, and the answer was economic. The answer was economic. So what we would have to look at is for those who are genuinely in need of protection from Sri Lanka, remember there are many people who are seeking protection offshore who are Tamils and they can come through our system that way and whether there's opportunities to do that in India or through our own mission or things like that, then they're the arrangements that we have to look at. But at some time - at some point, just as it was the case with Vietnam, just as it was the case with Cambodia, you have to get to a point where you say that we're now about rebuilding these countries and we're going to work with those countries and take the opportunity of cooperation to ensure that things are safe on the ground for all Sri Lankans. Paul Maley: Can I just... Scott Morrison: The Tamils, Sinhalese... Paul Maley: Can I just interrupt there. Scott Morrison: For all tribes. Paul Maley: There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in what you've just said. You've said "We'll look at ways of helping Tamil refugees via India or via other mechanisms but we're going to turn them back at sea". Scott Morrison: I want to know of the arrangements... Paul Maley: Hang on, on the one hand you're acknowledging that there is a human rights issue in Sri Lanka. On the other hand you're saying "We're going to turn them back anyway and deal with the problem in India". Is that right? Scott Morrison: Well, where there are legitimate claims, and where there are legitimate claims there would be an opportunity I would think as part of the UNHCR system to try and address that which Australia can always be part of as they are - as we are with refugee issues for the 10.4 million refugees all around the world. But what I'm saying about the situation is we can be in a position to work with the Sri Lankan Government to make
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things safe for people in Sri Lanka and that would be my primary focus. So if someone was coming back then I would want to have an understanding of how people were going to be accepted. We already have over 2,000... Paul Maley: Accepted back into Sri Lanka? Scott Morrison: We already have over 2,000 Sri Lankan refugees returning from India to Sri Lanka now and going into the arms of the UNHCR or the IUN who are in the ground and I'll go and see that first hand while I'm there. So to suggest that people can't go safely back to Sri Lanka at the moment when it is actually happening as we speak with the support of international agencies I think is to misrepresent the situation. It can be achieved and I think we should focus on enabling that to be achieved rather than just throwing up our hands... Paul Kelly: You've got to clarify - you've got to figure out - but if we can just clarify the bottom line here, what you're saying is that your objective in office is to ensure that no boats from Sri Lanka come here and they're all turned around as a result of an agreement with the Sri Lankan Government. Is that what you're aiming for? Scott Morrison: Of course that's our objective. That should be the Government's objective. Paul Kelly: Right. Scott Morrison: I mean, we don't want people taking that journey. I mean, if people think that the journey from Indonesia to Christmas Island is dangerous and people die, then look at the map between here and Sri Lanka. It is infinitely more dangerous and I cannot understand a Government that says they want to not risk people's life at sea when they have a national Government that is willing to work with them to ensure people don't even get beyond the 12 nautical mile zone of their own country and they won't assist them to do that. I mean, that is just something that I don't understand. It is an inconsistent position to hold. I mean, people know where we stand. We don't want to see people take that journey and if that involves intercepting vessels then we will. Paul Kelly: Now, can I just ask in relation to the Government's current screening practice dealing with Sri Lankans, do you think this is on firm legal ground or not, or do you think at the end of the day this won't stand up legally?
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Scott Morrison: Well, that's a matter for the courts to determine, Paul. I'm not going to speculate on the legalities of this. The Government knows what questions they're asking. The Government knows what process they're following and if that comes under scrutiny, well, the Government will sink or stand based on how they've operated that process. But... Paul Kelly: Would you be prepared to do the same in Government? Scott Morrison: I've always - if the circumstances required it, yes. But that is why we've advocated a different approach to what I think is a potentially very risky approach legally and that is to do - as I've said, to work with the Sri Lankan Government to intercept, on their shore, not on ours, and to have an interception policy outside our seaboard. Paul Maley: But isn't that... Scott Morrison: The Government rejected that. We called for that, you will recall, when the pirate boat was on its way and it wasn't until the pirate boat was about to get to Australia that this policy was enacted. Once again the Government was forced into it, they made it up on the run and the alternate Minister for Immigration, David Mann, I suspect will end up deciding the outcome of how this policy operates in the courts. Peter van Onselen: Can I just ask you a question on practicalities. What do you do in terms of stopping the boats and creating the deterrents that you're looking to if when you take over if all the facilities are already full? Scott Morrison: You're talking about on Nauru? Peter van Onselen: Nauru, right across the spectrum. Scott Morrison: How big the mess is, again, we can only speculate. I mean, the Government's got another nine, 12 months, 15 months to run. Paul Maley:
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You've already speculated. You've said that Labor's heart is not in this, that the problem I think we can assume, on your assumptions anyway, is going to be on the scale it is now. You've got no more capacity offshore. What are you going to do? Scott Morrison: That is why it is so critical we move so quickly on the deterrents. The reason why Nauru filled up is because the Government selected one option half-heartedly and I don't think effectively implemented it and as a result the boats kept coming and the whole policy was swamped. Now, that's why our deterrents measures I think are so important. Unless you can arrest the flow then all the issues you're talking about... Peter van Onselen: So you have to stop the boats... Scott Morrison: Become so much more... Peter van Onselen: ...from the first month basically for this to work if the centres are all full. Scott Morrison: Well, you can speculate on time frames but there can be no doubt that the focus must be single-mindedly on deterrents and that is a key - that is a key threshold issue in this debate. Peter van Onselen: But isn't a key part of deterrence to be able to put them in the offshore centres. So if the offshore centres are already full you've lost a massive leg in terms of your deterrence... Scott Morrison: Peter, once that plane arrives in Indonesia and you've got Iranians who are coming on with visa for entry in Indonesia and once they get on that boat and they're heading for Australia, that's where the problem already gets far more complicated. The further you can interrupt this and intercept this up the chain the more effective you can be. And what I'm trying to say fairly plainly today is our effort is going more and more and more back up the chain. Once you got to the situation where you're having to deal with things on our own 12 nautical mile zone, then the problem is already very difficult. And we need to put more and more effort up the chain on deterrents. And the Government's view is half-hearted and mealy-mouthed on this. At one stage they want to talk about having more places and more processing in the region which just draws more people in the region... Peter van Onselen:
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9 December 2012
Scott Morrison
So correct me if I'm wrong... Scott Morrison: And we want to focus on deterrents. Peter van Onselen: My understanding from the sounds of that is in other words, the people that are already in Indonesia that are on their way, they're already in transit on their way to Australia, in a sense when you take over if the asylum centres are full, you're going to have to work up the chain to stop more people heading to Indonesia, but in a sense the people that are already there, they're coming and... Scott Morrison: Well, they may or may not choose to come. Peter van Onselen: Fewer centres mean that we can't have anywhere to put them. Paul Maley: But that's what you just indicated. You said that once they hit the region... Scott Morrison: I said it gets more difficult. The problem gets more difficult the closer it gets to our shore. So we have to do everything we can on our side of the fence, temporary protection visas, offshore processing and the willingness to turn boats back where it's safe to do so on our - on the other side of our sea border, but the focus of regional deterrents, I think is something that hasn't got the attention that is required by the Government and I don't think frankly it's had it in the debate in the coverage of the debate. We've certainly been talking about it and there is a clear difference and differentiation between the Coalition's view on regional cooperation which is about deterrents and the Government's view which is trying to be all things to all people which they do all the time in this area and as a result they fall flat on their face on every single occasion. Paul Maley: So Nauru has lost its sting because of the manner in which Labor has implemented it. Is that what you're saying? Scott Morrison: Well, because they did it isolated only on one measure and the way that they've implemented it, and as I said at the outset of this interview, I think there are some things we can do to turn around how Nauru works and you'll hear more about that between now and the next election. But the heart of this is deterrents, that's what we're committing to and the Australian people know it.
Australian Agenda
9 December 2012
Scott Morrison
Peter van Onselen: Just a plain question: has the Government - I don't think I'm verballing the table to say that I think we all agree that the Government has had more than its fair share of problems with the asylum seekers policy issue, but has their attempt to fix their own policy in a sense caused grief and problems for your side of politics as policy when you do introduce it? I'm trying to get to the bottom of, has them trying to fix their own mess created a bit of a problem with your own policy? Because when you come in they've already done a half-baked version of Nauru which perhaps undermines some of the deterrents. Scott Morrison: Well, the Government's been trashing our measures and demonising them for a decade and they had, you know, a clear objective in doing that and when dragged kicking and screaming to implement just a small measure of those, the way they've done it has been quite incompetent. I'm not going to accuse them of conspiracy. If you've got a choice between a conspiracy and a stuff-up with this Government, it's usually a stuff-up and I think that's what we're seeing here, but what they can't change is our resolve. What they can't change is our I think superior understanding of how we deal with these issues from a deterrence perspective and the willingness to follow through on that, and I think you saw that on the front pages of 'The Telegraph' this week. People know up in the region and looking to come to Australia is if there's a change of Government there will be a change of management on this issue and it will be a very different regime. Paul Maley: But I think what Peter's saying - I don't want to verbal Peter but I think he's saying that the effect of Nauru is shock and awe, you know, you get into office, here we go, everybody's off to Nauru. That's the way it worked the last time round. You haven't got that... Scott Morrison: Didn't work that way this time, did it? Paul Maley: Well, it hasn't worked that way so that's left you... Scott Morrison: The Government did not send everyone to Nauru... Paul Maley: Now you're in a position... Scott Morrison:
Australian Agenda
9 December 2012
Scott Morrison
...they kept them all at Christmas Island and they just kept turning up, and then they gave them bridging visas. Paul Maley: Now you're in a position where all you can do is focus on deterrents, regional deterrents which is, with respect, quite ill-defined at this stage and not clear to me what exactly you're talking about when you talk of up the chain regional deterrents. Scott Morrison: Well Paul, our focus has always been on deterrents, always, consistently, for years, for a decade, and at the end of the day I think the smugglers and those seeking to come know our focus on that, and I think the opportunity for a new Government to take a different approach on this issue with a record of achievement and performance I think will send a very, very strong message and that's what Australians can do next year at the election. This Government can't send any message at the moment but the people of Australia can at the next election. Peter van Onselen: All right, Shadow Immigration Spokesperson Scott Morrison, thanks for your company. I appreciate you joining us. Scott Morrison: Thanks.
Australian Agenda
9 December 2012
Scott Morrison