1

6 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM,

7 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

8 WASHINGTON, D.C.

10

11

12 INTERVIEW OF: HOWARD LUTNICK

13

14

15

16 Wednesday, May 6, 2026

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18 Washington, D.C.

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20

21 The interview in the above matter was held in 2154, Rayburn House Office Building,

22 commencing at 11:03 a.m.

23 Present: Representatives Comer, Timmons, Ansari, Subramanyam, Khanna, and Walkinshaw.

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1 Appearances:

5 For the COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM:

7 DANIEL ASHWORTH, GENERAL COUNSEL

8 BRITTANY BRIGNAC, SENIOR COUNSEL

9 HANNAH CATHEY, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER

10 JESSICA COLLINS, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR

11 JACK EMMER, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS

12 EMILY FEYERABEND, COUNSEL

13 BILLY GRANT, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL FOR INVESTIGATIONS

14 WILL HARNICE, PROFESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER

15 MARK MARIN, STAFF DIRECTOR

16 PETER SPECTRE, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OVERSIGHT

17 ELLISON TOLAN, COUNSEL

18 ASHLEE VINYARD, DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR

19 , MINORITY DEPUTY STAFF DIRECTOR

20 , MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR

21 , MINORITY SENIOR POLICY ADVISOR

22 , MINORITY RESEARCH ASSISTANT

23 , MINORITY RESEARCH ANALYST

24 , MINORITY DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS

25 AND CHIEF CLERK

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1 , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL

2 , MINORITY LEGAL INTERN

3 , MINORITY SENIOR COUNSEL

4 , MINORITY FELLOW

5 , MINORITY CHIEF COUNSEL

7 For HOWARD LUTNICK:

9 ZACHARY TERWILLIGER

10 MIKE CROWLEY

11

12 VINSON & ELKINS

13 2200 Pennsylvania Avenue NW

14 Suite 500 West

15 Washington, DC 20037

16 AUSTIN MAYRON, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

17 THOMAS BARNHORST, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY

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2 Mr. Emmer. We will go on the record. This is a transcribed interview of Secretary Howard W.

3 Lutnick, conducted by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, under the

4 authority granted to it pursuant to House Rule X.

5 Accordingly, House Rule X grants the committee broad jurisdiction for the committee to

6 conduct investigations of any matter at any time.

7 This interview is requested by Chairman James Comer as part of the committee's

8 investigation into the circumstances and subsequent investigation into the circumstances and

9 subsequent investigations and the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the operation of

10 sex trafficking rings and ways for the Federal Government to effectively combat them, the ways in

11 which Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell sought to curry favor and exercise influence to protect their

12 illegal activities, and potential violations of Ethics rules related to elected officials.

13 Can the witness please state his name and spell his last name for the record?

14 Secretary Lutnick. Howard Lutnick, L-u-t-n-i-c-k.

15 Mr. Emmer. Thank you. I want to thank Secretary Lutnick for appearing voluntarily here

16 today.

17 My name is Jack Emmer and I am the chief counsel for investigations for Chairman James

18 Comer.

19 Under the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform's rules, you are allowed to have

20 counsel present to advise you during this interview. Do you have counsel representing you present

21 with you today?

22 Secretary Lutnick. Yes.

23 Mr. Emmer. Will counsel please identify themselves for the record?

24 Mr. Terwilliger. Zach Terwilliger, partner at Vinson & Elkins law firm.

25 Mr. Crowley. Michael Crowley, associate, Vinson & Elkins.

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1 Mr. Mayron. Austin Mayron, Department of Commerce.

2 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

3 For the record, starting with the majority staff, can the additional staff members please

4 introduce themselves with their name, title, and affiliation.

5 Mr. Grant. Billy Grant, deputy chief counsel for investigations, Chairman Comer.

6 Mr. Spectre. Peter Spectre, director of oversight for Chairman Comer.

7 Ms. Tolan. Ellison Tolan, counsel, Chairman Comer.

8 Ms. Cathey. Hannah Cathey, professional staff member, Chairman Comer.

9 Ms. Feyerabend. Emily Feyerabend, counsel for Chairman Comer.

10 Ms. Brignac. Brittany Brignac, senior counsel, Chairman Comer.

11 Mr. Ashworth. Daniel Ashworth, general counsel for Chairman Comer.

12 Mr. Harnice. Will Harnice, professional staff member for Chairman Comer.

13 Ms. Vinyard. Ashlee Vinyard, deputy staff director for Chairman Comer.

14 Ms. Collins. Jessica Collins, communications director for Chairman Comer.

15 , chief counsel, Ranking Member Garcia.

16 , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia.

17 , research assistant, Ranking Member Garcia.

18 , research analyst, Ranking Member Garcia.

19 , senior counsel, Ranking Member Garcia.

20 , senior policy adviser, Ranking Member Garcia.

21 , legal intern, Ranking Member Garcia.

22 , comms director, Ranking Member Garcia.

23 , staff director, Ranking Member Garcia.

24 , fellow, Ranking Member Garcia.

25 , deputy staff director for Ranking Member Garcia.

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1 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

2 We have Members of Congress present today. Starting with the Chairman, can the majority

3 Members intro and then the minority Members.

4 Chairman Comer. James Comer, Kentucky.

5 Mr. Timmons. William Timmons, South Carolina.

6 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

7 Secretary Lutnick, before we begin, I would like to go over the ground rules for this interview.

8 The questioning will proceed in rounds. The majority will ask questions for up to an hour, and then

9 the minority will have an opportunity to ask questions for up to an hour if they choose.

10 To the extent Members have questions for the witness, they will be propounded during their

11 side's respective rounds.

12 The clock will stop if you need to confer with counsel, your counsel is speaking, and when

13 Members or staff are speaking during the opposing side's rounds of questions. We will alternate

14 back and forth until there are no more questions.

15 Do you understand?

16 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

17 Mr. Emmer. There is a court reporter taking down everything I say and everything you say to

18 make a written record of the interview.

19 For the record to be clear, please wait until the staffer questioning you finishes each question

20 before you begin your answer, and the staffer will wait until you finish your response before

21 proceeding to the next round.

22 Further, to ensure the court reporter can properly record this interview, please speak clearly,

23 concisely, and slowly. Also, the court reporter cannot record nonverbal answers, such as nodding or

24 shaking your head. So it is important that you answer each question with an audible, verbal answer.

25 Exhibits may be entered into the record. Majority exhibits will be identified numerically.
 7

1 Minority exhibits will be identified alphabetically.

2 Do you understand?

3 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

4 Mr. Emmer. We want you to answer our questions in the most complete and truthful manner

5 possible. So we will take our time. If you have any questions or do not fully understand the

6 question, please let us know. We will attempt to clarify, add context to, or rephrase our questions.

7 If we ask about specific conversations or events in the past and you are unable to recall the

8 exact words or details, you should testify to the substance of those conversations or events to the

9 best of your recollection.

10 If you recall only a part of a conversation or event, you should give us your best recollection

11 of those events or parts of conversations that you do recall.

12 Do you understand?

13 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

14 Mr. Emmer. Although you are here voluntarily and you will not be sworn in, you are required

15 by law, pursuant to title 18 of the United States Code, section 1001, to answer questions from

16 Congress truthfully.

17 This also applies to questions posed by congressional staff in this interview. Do you

18 understand?

19 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

20 Mr. Emmer. If at any time you knowingly make false statements you could be subject to

21 criminal prosecution. Do you understand?

22 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

23 Mr. Emmer. This includes both knowingly providing false testimony but also stating that you

24 do not recall or remember something when, in fact, you do. Do you understand?

25 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

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1 Mr. Emmer. Furthermore, you cannot tell half-truths or exclude information necessary to

2 make statements accurate. You are required to provide all information that would make your

3 response truthful.

4 A deliberate failure to disclose information can constitute a false statement. Do you

5 understand?

6 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

7 Mr. Emmer. Is there any reason you are unable to provide truthful testimony in today's

8 interview?

9 Secretary Lutnick. No.

10 Mr. Emmer. Please note that, if you wish to assert a privilege over any statement today, that

11 assertion must comply with the rules of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

12 Pursuant to that, committee rule 16(c)(1) states, "For the chair to consider assertions of

13 privilege over testimony or statements, witnesses or entities must clearly state the specific privilege

14 being asserted and the reason for the assertion on or before the scheduled date of testimony or

15 appearance."

16 Do you understand?

17 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

18 Mr. Emmer. Ordinarily, we take a 5-minute break at the end of each hour of questioning, but

19 if you need a longer break or a break before that, please let us know, and we will be happy to

20 accommodate.

21 However, to the extent that there is a pending question, we would ask that you finish

22 answering the question before we take a break. Do you understand?

23 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

24 Mr. Emmer. Do you have any other questions before we begin?

25 Secretary Lutnick. No.

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1 Mr. Emmer. Do you have an opening statement that you would like to read?

2 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

3 Mr. Emmer. You may proceed.

4 Secretary Lutnick. Chairman Comer, members of the committee, and committee staff, I

5 unequivocally condemn the conduct attributed to Jeffrey Epstein and everyone who participated in

6 his illegal activities.

7 The survivors of his crimes deserve our respect and support.

8 I voluntarily agreed to appear and answer questions in connection with this committee's

9 investigation.

10 I would like to begin by briefly describing my virtually nonexistent interactions with this

11 individual who lived adjacent to my New York City home.

12 In 1997, I purchased an unfinished townhouse as my family home in New York City.

13 Renovations took several more years than expected due to the events of September 11th terrorist

14 attacks and their impact on me, my family, and all of my coworkers in the World Trade Center.

15 Approximately 8 years after our purchase, in 2005, my family and I finally moved into our new

16 home, which happened to be adjacent to his residence.

17 Shortly thereafter, my wife and I were invited by that individual to his residence for coffee.

18 During this brief interaction that included my wife, me, and this individual, he made a crude and

19 gross remark in my wife's presence, which caused us to cut the visit short and leave.

20 Immediately following that brief initial meeting, as we walked back to our home, my wife and

21 I discussed the encounter and that, given his clear lack of boundaries, I would never establish a

22 personal or professional relationship with him. And that is exactly what I did.

23 Following this 2005 interaction, my only other two interactions with Epstein over the

24 ensuring -- ensuring -- ensuing 14 years were both meaningless and inconsequential.

25 My second interaction occurred 6 years later, in 2011, when his staff initiated contact with my
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1 office, suggesting he had a reason to get in touch with me.

2 Our offices attempted to connect us by phone over the course of several weeks but were

3 unable to do so. Ultimately, to the best of my recollection, his staff indicated he would be in his

4 residence on a particular weekend afternoon. And my staff arranged for me to ring his bell, during

5 my and my wife's typical Sunday walk around the block with our dogs, to hear what he had to say.

6 My best recollection is: I rang the bell, sat in his foyer with my dog, waited for him to come

7 down, heard what he had to say, and left. As far as I recall, it was about scaffolding. It was

8 meaningless and inconsequential.

9 Next, some 18 months later, in late 2012, his staff inexplicably contacted my office,

10 unprompted, regarding my family's planned holiday travels to the Caribbean.

11 Unbeknownst to me, his staff somehow had become aware that my family and I would be

12 near his island over the holidays, although they were apparently unsure whether that meant during

13 the Thanksgiving or Christmas holidays.

14 I still have no idea how his staff discovered my family's vacation plans or why they pursued

15 arranging a visit with me.

16 From what I have since learned, it appears he was initially seeking a meeting with just me.

17 My wife made clear, however, that we had a large traveling party of approximately 12-plus people,

18 and if we were to come, it would be with everyone.

19 My family of six and another family of six, had a brief, meaningless, and inconsequential lunch

20 and then left.

21 To the best of my recollection, those were the only three occasions in which I interacted with

22 Epstein in person. Each and every one was meaningless and inconsequential.

23 To put this in perspective, Epstein lived in the house next door to my family for 14 years, and

24 in that entire time, I interacted with him in person only three times. Again, each meaningless and

25 inconsequential.
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1 I had no personal or professional relationship with this individual, despite the proximity of our

2 addresses.

3 Further, at no time during these limited interactions did I witness any conduct, let alone the

4 type of illegal conduct of which we have since become aware.

5 In closing, after our first interaction, my wife and I discussed that I would not establish a

6 personal nor professional relationship with that individual.

7 On a podcast in October 2025, I informally recounted that conversation. What I said on the

8 podcast, regarding my conversation with my wife, was correct. I did not establish a personal or

9 professional relationship with that individual. The documents and my prior testimony confirm that.

10 I am here to answer your questions.

11 Mr. Emmer. Thank you. We have since had a Member join. Can they please announce

12 themselves for the record?

13 Ms. Ansari. Hi, Congresswoman Yassamin Ansari, Arizona.

14 Mr. Subramanyam. Congressman Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia.

15 Mr. Emmer. The time reads 11:18, and the majority's time will begin now.

16 EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. EMMER:

18 Q Secretary Lutnick, I understand you've had a long career, but can we just start by, can

19 you briefly walk us through your professional career up until now?

20 A Sure. I graduated from Haverford College in Pennsylvania, and my first job was with

21 Cantor Fitzgerald, and I never had another job. So I stayed at the same firm my entire career.

22 And, if you had asked me or my family 2 years ago, "would that be true," I would've assumed

23 it would be for the full amount of my career.

24 And then I left Cantor Fitzgerald to join the Trump administration as the Secretary of

25 Commerce. So it's a rather simple career, one job since college, and then a second job working for
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1 the administration.

2 Q Thank you. And, again, we appreciate your public service and agreeing to testify

3 voluntarily.

4 Let's talk about your contact with Epstein, and we appreciate the personal -- or the statement

5 that you made. But let's start from the beginning.

6 When did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein?

7 A I first met Jeffrey Epstein when his staff knocked on our door and invited my wife and I

8 to come next door for coffee to -- he lived in the townhouse adjacent to ours.

9 And then, sometime later, my wife and I went over to his house for coffee. It would be

10 literally 8 or 10 steps next door.

11 Q And who was the staffer that knocked on your door?

12 A Well, I don't know, and I didn't answer the door. I have someone who works for me

13 who answers the door.

14 Q So you were invited. What happened when you showed up at Mr. Epstein's residence?

15 A My best recollection is: We walked next door. Someone answered the door. We

16 went -- we went through his foyer, up a big flight of stairs to his living room, and sat in his living room

17 and had coffee.

18 Mr. Grant. Excuse me. What year was this roughly?

19 Secretary Lutnick. This was 2005.

20 Mr. Grant. Thank you.

21 BY MR. EMMER:

22 Q And you said that you had coffee with him. What were the nature of your conversations

23 with him during this coffee?

24 A I don't recall.

25 Q And approximately how long did this coffee last?

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1 A A short -- reasonably short amount of time, maybe 10 or 15 minutes. And then he

2 offered us a tour of his house.

3 Q And I recognize that you touched on this in your opening statement, but, again, when

4 did you purchase the property?

5 A So I purchased my property in 1997, and then -- but it was an unfinished property,

6 meaning, the residents were pigeons and mice. I mean, literally unfinished. I mean pigeons flying

7 around.

8 So it required extensive building. I wouldn't even say renovations. It didn't have a heating or

9 air conditioning system. It was a raw structure.

10 Q And you said you moved into the property in 2005. Correct?

11 A That's right.

12 Q And, in between the purchase and the renovations you made, you had no contact with

13 Mr. Epstein whatsoever?

14 A Zero.

15 Q What did you know about Mr. Epstein prior to this interaction?

16 A I didn't know of him. I don't recall knowing anything about him.

17 Q You had no understanding of what his job was when you initially met him?

18 A I did not. Not that I recall. Everything I say would be what I recall today, so.

19 Q And, again, you brought this up in your opening statement, but this first interaction, you

20 going to his home for coffee, that is the interaction you described on the Pod Force One podcast. Is

21 that right?

22 A Yes. And I went with my wife next door. He invited my wife and I over to welcome us to

23 the neighborhood, is what my recollection is.

24 Q And, for the record, I am referring to the October 1st, 2025, Pod Force One podcast that

25 you appeared on as a guest with Miranda Devine, which we'll discuss in more detail shortly.
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1 So you have this coffee. What happened next?

2 A Or he -- he offered, "Would you like a tour of the house," and we said, "Sure." And then

3 we had a tour, and we went across the hall where, you know -- across from the living room is

4 generally the dining room -- and he opened the door, and there was a massage table. And I saw his

5 massage table, and that ended the tour.

6 Q So you did not see the rest of the house? One room is what you're saying?

7 A One room. That's my recollection.

8 Mr. Spectre. Secretary Lutnick, you mentioned in your opening statement that he

9 demonstrated -- that Mr. Epstein demonstrated a clear lack of boundaries, I think was the word that

10 you used. Are you referring to the massage table in that?

11 Secretary Lutnick. No. So we were in the living room. So I saw the living room, and then we

12 went, and he opened the door to the room across the hall, which was what I had assumed would be

13 the dining room, but he opened it, and there was a massage table.

14 And his lack of boundaries was what he said.

15 Mr. Spectre. What did he say?

16 Secretary Lutnick. I asked him why he had a massage table in the middle of his house. This is

17 the best of my recollection. It's not, like, precisely what was said. This is a general recollection of

18 something that's 21 years ago. So -- and I said, "How often do you have a massage?"

19 And he said -- my best recollection is, he said, "Every day and the right kind of massage." And

20 he said it to me, and my wife is standing next to me, and we looked at each other, and we left.

21 BY MR. EMMER:

22 Q For the record, what did you interpret Mr. Epstein to mean when he said "the right kind

23 of massage"?

24 A That it would become in some form sexual in nature. And that's -- and that's what I

25 assumed it meant.
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1 Q And, at this point, did you ask to end the tour, or you just said, "We're going to leave"?

2 A I don't remember precisely what we said, but we basically excused ourselves and

3 departed.

4 Q Did your wife ask Mr. Epstein any questions related to the massage table?

5 A I don't recall her speaking, no.

6 Q So, on the podcast, you said, after seeing the massage table in Mr. Epstein's house and

7 the six, eight steps it took for you and your wife to get back to your house, you decide, and I'm

8 quoting, "that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again."

9 Is that an accurate characterization of the statements you made on that podcast?

10 A That is an informal, incomplete discussion that my wife and I had as we walked back, the

11 point of which was that, when I discussed it with my wife, that I, Howard Lutnick, would not have a

12 personal or professional relationship with this person because he obviously doesn't have boundaries.

13 So just avoid him. I should avoid him. And that's what we discussed. It's not verbatim what

14 we said because this is 21 years ago, but it's -- and it is what I did. I avoided that person.

15 Q And I believe my colleague may have been asking a similar question, but that feeling

16 that he was disgusting, that was based solely on interaction with Epstein after you saw the massage

17 table and asked him about it. Is that right?

18 A It was based on his comment that was inappropriate and gross to me and my wife. It

19 just was off-putting, and we left.

20 Q It's been reported, and we've seen by the files released by the Department of Justice,

21 that Mr. Epstein decorated his home with creepy and disturbing artwork.

22 Did you notice any unusual artwork at his residence when you visited?

23 A The living room, which I saw, did not have anything creepy or unusual in it.

24 Q You didn't notice any paintings or photos of nude women or girls in it -- on it when you

25 visited his property?

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1 A No. And I would've noticed them, so, no.

2 Q So I want to talk more about your appearance on the Pod Force One podcast and the

3 statements that you made, but first, generally, how did this appearance come about?

4 A I don't know offhand. I think my comms -- you know, it comes from your

5 communications director, sets it up. I don't know.

6 Q And the topic of Jeffrey Epstein was the first topic during this appearance. Did you

7 know that you would be discussing Jeffrey Epstein when you agreed to go on this podcast?

8 A No. I thought I was going on to talk about September 11th.

9 Q So we talked about the statements that you made after seeing the massage table -- that

10 guy's gross, disgusting, you'll never be in the room with him again, and you said it was just a

11 one-and-done.

12 Is that a fair characterization of your statements?

13 A No, I think the right way to think about it is my wife and I discussed that I would not be

14 in the room with him for professional, philanthropic, or social reasons, meaning, don't form -- the

15 simplest way to say it is "don't form a personal or professional relationship with him; avoid

16 establishing one because he has no boundaries," right? He said something inappropriate; just avoid

17 him. And I did.

18 So that was the discussion with my wife. It was informal. I wasn't trying to be precise. I was

19 trying to have people understand that I -- that my wife and I discussed that I would not establish a

20 personal or professional relationship with him, and that I did not. Thereafter, I did not.

21 Q During the podcast, would you dispute any characterization that you implied that, after

22 this initial interaction, you would never interact with Mr. Epstein again?

23 A I would. The characterization suggesting that I couldn't be in the room -- that I

24 personally -- A, it was discussion with my wife that I, as a man, should avoid being with him because

25 he has no boundaries, and that won't work well for me in my life if I'm with someone with no
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1 boundaries. So avoid him.

2 That was the discussion I had with my wife, and I did avoid him. So it is true what I said. It

3 wasn't that I couldn't be -- if he -- as the Members know, often people come up to you and, you

4 know, say hello to you in a big crowd. I wasn't saying that couldn't occur.

5 It didn't occur, but the point I was making is I would not have a personal and professional

6 relationship with him. I would avoid it, and I did avoid it.

7 Q Did you interact with Epstein after the initial interaction that you described on the

8 podcast?

9 A As I said in my opening statement, I had two in-person interactions with him thereafter

10 over the next 14 years -- even though I lived adjacent to him, two interactions over the next 14 years,

11 both meaningless and inconsequential.

12 Q And we will get into more specifics, but you did visit Epstein's private island. Is that

13 right?

14 A I did visit Jeffrey Epstein's private island with my wife and my children and another

15 couple and their four children and staff, yes.

16 Q I want to briefly talk about statements that you made related to -- and I'm going to --

17 your statement was that Epstein had an MO to give massages to influential individuals and -- that he

18 used it as blackmail. For the record, that was based not on firsthand knowledge. Is that right?

19 A Correct.

20 Mr. Terwilliger. I'm sorry, Counsel. Would you mind just letting us know where that

21 statement's coming from?

22 Mr. Emmer. During the same podcast.

23 Mr. Terwilliger. Thank you.

24 Mr. Emmer. And I'll be happy to pull out the transcript if you guys need a --

25 Mr. Terwilliger. No. Just was curious where -- just wanted to make sure we were tracking
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1 where you were pulling the statement from. Thank you.

2 . We can't hear back here.

3 Secretary Lutnick. I was just speculating for a podcast. I had no personal information. I was

4 just speculating for a podcast.

5 BY MR. EMMER:

6 Q For the record, sir, did Jeffrey Epstein ever inform or represent to you that he was part

7 of any intelligence service of any nation, including the United States?

8 A No.

9 Q So how would you characterize your relationship with Mr. Epstein?

10 A I had no personal or professional relationship with him. I had two interactions in person

11 that were meaningless and inconsequential. I would say I had no relationship with him.

12 Q How often did you interact with Epstein in a personal capacity?

13 A I met him once in 2005. I had two meaningless and inconsequential other personal

14 interactions. And I tried to think about this as many times as I can, and I cannot think of any others,

15 nor do the documents show any others.

16 Q Besides the in-person interactions, which, again, we'll talk about more specifically later,

17 did you email, have phone calls with Mr. Epstein?

18 A I do not recall ever having a phone call with Mr. Epstein, and I think I had one set of

19 email interactions with Mr. Epstein personally that went -- meaning four were written by me to him,

20 but in one -- effectively one conversation.

21 I mean, I said A; he responded B; I wrote C; he responded D. And I think there were a total of

22 four in one day once.

23 Q For the record, you've mentioned the visit to the island, the tour of the townhome. Did

24 you ever visit Epstein's Palm Beach home?

25 A No.
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1 Q Did you ever visit Epstein's New Mexico ranch?

2 A No.

3 Q His Paris apartment?

4 A No.

5 Q Did you ever visit any other property owned or leased by Mr. Epstein?

6 A No.

7 Q Did Mr. Epstein ever invite you to any of his properties?

8 A No.

9 Q Did you ever fly on any of Mr. Epstein's private planes?

10 A No.

11 Mr. Spectre. And, just for clarity on the record, you had -- besides the two interactions you

12 discussed at Epstein's New York home, did you ever visit that home at any other time when he was

13 not present?

14 Secretary Lutnick. No.

15 BY MR. EMMER:

16 Q Did Mr. Epstein ever fly on one of your private planes?

17 A No.

18 Q Did you ever fly with Mr. Epstein on any aircraft?

19 A No. I had no other personal interactions with him. Just the three. So I'm happy to say,

20 no, but they're by definition "no" since I had no personal interactions with him.

21 Q To the best of your recollection, when was the last time you communicated with

22 Mr. Epstein?

23 A It's the one email exchange in 2018, and that is the only one I know of actually.

24 Q Thank you.

25 Secretary, the committee is also investigating Maxwell. Do you know Ghislaine Maxwell?
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1 A From the newspapers.

2 Q Have you ever met Ghislaine Maxwell?

3 A I met her once.

4 Q Can you explain to the committee when you met her?

5 A To the best of my recollection, I met her once. It was at a Rockefeller Institute

6 fundraiser in New York City.

7 Q And what were the nature of your conversations with Ms. Maxwell, to the best of your

8 recollection?

9 A Meaningless and inconsequential.

10 Mr. Grant. Do you know roughly what year this meeting would've occurred?

11 Secretary Lutnick. I don't.

12 Mr. Spectre. Did you know her to be affiliated with Jeffrey Epstein when you met her?

13 Secretary Lutnick. No.

14 BY MR. EMMER:

15 Q Who else was present when you met her?

16 A Well, it was a charity fundraiser for Rockefeller Institute, which is the premier medical

17 research institution in New York, which is adjacent to New York hospital.

18 Q Thank you.

19 Secretary Lutnick, in 2005, police in Palm Beach, Florida, began investigating Epstein. In July

20 2006, Epstein was arrested for the first time for soliciting prostitution from minors.

21 When did you first learn of Jeffrey Epstein's 2006 arrest?

22 A I don't recall whether -- when or whether I knew that. So I just have no recollection

23 whether I knew that or not.

24 Mr. Spectre. Mr. Epstein reportedly had to register as a sex offender after he was convicted

25 of that 2006 offense.

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1 Were you ever notified -- by way of him being your neighbor -- were you ever notified about

2 his status?

3 Secretary Lutnick. No.

4 Mr. Spectre. Did you have children under the age of 18 at that -- during that time?

5 Secretary Lutnick. Yes.

6 BY MR. EMMER:

7 Q And, to be clear, did you ever have reason to suspect Mr. Epstein was sexually abusing

8 young women and girls?

9 A No.

10 Q Did anyone around you ever discuss Mr. Epstein and his arrest in Florida?

11 A Not that I can remember, no.

12 Q Secretary Lutnick, you touched on this in your opening statement, but to be clear, you

13 visited Little Saint James, Epstein's island, in December of 2012. Is that right?

14 A In 20- -- around just before Christmas 2012, I visited the island for lunch with my wife,

15 my children, my friends -- my friend, his wife, their children, and my staff for an hour, I did. I'm not

16 sure I knew the name of it either.

17 Q If I said that your visit was on December 23rd of 2012, would you dispute that

18 statement?

19 A I would not.

20 Mr. Emmer. At this time, I would like to introduce as majority exhibit 1, this is EFTA2151530,

21 and I will give you a moment to review.

22 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 1

23 was marked for identification.]

24 Secretary Lutnick. Okay.

25 BY MR. EMMER:
 22

1 Q So I'll read this into the record. This is an email from Tuesday, November 20th, of 2012,

2 sent by Lesley Groff. The subject line reads "Jeffrey Epstein."

3 The email reads, "Hello, Mr. Lutnick, Jeffrey Epstein understands you will be down in

4 St. Thomas some over the holidays. Jeffrey requested I please pass along some phone numbers to

5 you so the two of you can possibly get together. Any numbers you wanted to pass along to Jeffrey

6 would be great as well."

7 I will say, it appears that you were the recipient of this email. Do you recall receiving it?

8 A It may be helpful for you to understand that, if the email says "Howard Lutnick" or

9 "Lutnick, Howard" those went to Matthew Gilbert. They did not go to me. They were not --

10 meaning, I would never see them. They went to Matthew Gilbert.

11 You would know if they went to me if they are listed as "HWL" and -- because I received

12 hundreds of emails, sometimes thousands. And they went to Matthew Gilbert, and I would not see

13 them. So these would've gone to him, and I would not have seen them.

14 Q I understand. And, for the record, that's why Matthew Gilbert would've been the

15 individual who responded to this email. Is that right?

16 A I mean, he would respond sometimes in his name, but he would also respond

17 sometimes to the same email in my name.

18 Q And you discussed the invite in your opening statement, but I'm going to ask you again.

19 How did your visit to Little Saint James come about? Who coordinated it?

20 A What I still cannot understand is this November 20, how or why, without any

21 communication for years would he inexplicably know where I'm going. It's unsettling, actually. But

22 this is how it happened.

23 You know, I don't know why it happened, but this is -- you're actually literally seeing how it

24 happened, but it is inexplicable that he would -- and his staff would know where I was going to be. I

25 had no interactions with him.

 23

1 Q So, to be clear, you did not reach out, yourself, to tell Mr. Epstein that you were going to

2 be in the U.S. Virgin Islands over Christmas. Is that right?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And --

5 A Yes, that is correct. I did not in any way contact or have any connection to him.

6 Q And it would be safe to say that the invite surprised you?

7 A I find it unsettling and inexplicable.

8 Q Who else was involved in coordinating this trip to the island?

9 A I have no recollection. So I can't give you more information. I just have no recollection

10 of it.

11 Q During our review of the documents that have been released, it appeared that your wife

12 may have been in contact with Epstein's team. Did she ever say anything to you about the island

13 visit?

14 A Not that I can recall now, no.

15 Mr. Spectre. Do you know if anyone on your staff or anyone else close to you had a

16 connection with Mr. Epstein or his staff? Just trying to understand how he may have been aware of

17 your travels.

18 Secretary Lutnick. Me too. I find it inexplicable and unsettling, and just reading this sort of --

19 it's bothersome. So, no, I don't know.

20 Mr. Emmer. So you arrive on the island on December 23rd. To the best of your recollection,

21 can you describe the events? What happened when you arrived to the island?

22 Secretary Lutnick. Sure. So it's 14 years ago. So it's not -- I went for lunch with my wife and

23 my four children, my friends -- a couple and their four children -- and staff and boat staff. So it was

24 probably 15, 16 people went for lunch.

25 We sat outside, had lunch. It was boring. We left.

 24

1 Mr. Spectre. Did this friend and their family that was with you have any prior connection with

2 Mr. Epstein, or were they there as your guests and for your visit to your neighbor?

3 Secretary Lutnick. They were just there as my guests, but I don't know -- and I've never

4 heard -- that they had any contact whatsoever with him.

5 Mr. Spectre. Prior or subsequent to the visit?

6 Secretary Lutnick. Prior or subsequent.

7 Mr. Spectre. Thank you.

8 BY MR. EMMER:

9 Q Mr. Epstein didn't offer you a tour of the island while you were there?

10 A No. Other than we walked, I think -- like from where we had lunch, there was a -- this is

11 my best recollection -- is there was, like, a cliff. So we went and sort of looked at the water.

12 Q What were the nature of your conversations with Mr. Epstein during this visit?

13 A Meaningless and inconsequential. I was with my wife and my children and my friends --

14 another couple and their children. It was a big crowd, and we had lunch and left.

15 Q Besides the group that you arrived with, who else was present on the island?

16 A Just staff. We were -- you know, we were outside under sort of a cover, outside area.

17 That was it.

18 Q Did you see any young women or girls on the island?

19 A No.

20 Q And I asked this in the context of the New York townhome, but did you notice any weird

21 or unusual artwork when you visited the island?

22 A No. I wasn't inside any building. I don't recall being inside any building.

23 Q And you never visited the island again. Is that right?

24 A That's correct, never.

25 Q Did you ever hear rumors about the island -- obviously, now it has the nickname
 25

1 "pedophile island" -- nothing of that sort prior to or around the time that you visited?

2 A No, of course not. In 2019, we all learned lots of information, but nothing before then.

3 Q There is a photo that was released, I believe in the Epstein Files Transparency Act, and

4 has been reported. Are you aware of a photo of you on the island?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And was that the -- or what you were describing of looking over the cliff? Would it be

7 safe to assume that that's when the photo was taken?

8 A Yes. It's entirely confirmatory, that photo.

9 Mr. Spectre. Had you seen that photo before it was released by the Department of Justice?

10 Secretary Lutnick. No.

11 Mr. Spectre. Did you know it existed?

12 Secretary Lutnick. No.

13 Mr. Emmer. At this time, I would like to introduce majority exhibit 2, and these are photos

14 that were released by the Department of Justice as part of the Epstein Files Transparency Act.

15 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 2

16 was marked for identification.]

17 BY MR. EMMER:

18 Q And, for the record, these are images showing multiple masks of different male faces

19 hanging on the walls of a room at Mr. Epstein's island, with a dentist chair in the middle of the room.

20 Secretary Lutnick, when you visited Epstein's island, did you see or enter this room?

21 A No.

22 Q Have you seen pictures of these masks before?

23 A No.

24 Q The reason that we introduce this is many people online have speculated that one of the

25 masks resembles you, specifically the one on the first page in the middle. What's your response to
 26

1 these claims?

2 A You've got to be kidding me. That is the most ridiculous and absurd thing I've ever

3 heard. What, a bald man? I have hair. Look. I mean, I don't have many, but at least I have some.

4 That is not remotely me. That's nonsense.

5 Q Thank you.

6 During your visit to the island, did you discuss the company AdFin Solutions with Mr. Epstein?

7 A No.

8 Q And what is AdFin Solutions?

9 A It was a company that attempted to create an exchange for online ads. They went out

10 of business.

11 Q Were you personally an investor in AdFin Solutions?

12 A No.

13 Q Was Cantor Fitzgerald an investor in AdFin Solutions?

14 A Yes.

15 Mr. Terwilliger. Mr. Emmer, just so the record's clear, I believe there's different --

16 . We can't hear over here.

17 Mr. Terwilliger. Sure. Just so the record is clear, Mr. Emmer, I think you may want to ask

18 which part of Cantor Fitzgerald. There's multiple subsidiaries, -- or the Secretary could offer a little

19 bit more information on which part of Cantor Fitzgerald was an investor.

20 BY MR. EMMER:

21 Q Which part of Cantor Fitzgerald was an investor?

22 A Cantor Fitzgerald had a subsidiary that did venture capital investing with small

23 investments in many companies in sort of high-risk investments, and then those would then have

24 subsidiary companies that might be for each particular investment.

25 It was called Cantor Ventures, and so often the company would be called CV, so
 27

1 Cantor Ventures would be CV. But it was a venture capital arm of Cantor Fitzgerald, so sort of

2 multiple layers down the subsidiary chain.

3 Q And the reason we ask is there was a stock purchase agreement that was released as

4 part of the Epstein Files Transparency Act that you signed on behalf of CVAFH and Mr. Epstein signed.

5 Did you know that Mr. Epstein was an investor in this company AdFin?

6 A No.

7 Q When did you learn that he was an investor?

8 A To the best of my knowledge, when these documents were released. Best of my

9 recollection.

10 Q And would you have been aware of all the investors, whether they were individuals or

11 entities, in any of Cantor Fitzgerald's portfolios?

12 A No. Of venture capital investments? No.

13 Q And, for the record, had you and Mr. Epstein ever invested in the same company prior

14 to this occurrence?

15 A No. Not that I would know of.

16 Mr. Grant. The signatory page from the investment to AdFin Solutions, you said you had not

17 seen that -- or I'm sorry -- that you -- let me rephrase.

18 Is it common for another investor in a VC deal to have the signatory page from another

19 investor?

20 Secretary Lutnick. No. I found it inexplicable and unsettling that he had -- that it was

21 released, that my company's signature page would be in someone else's files. It is -- it's unsettling.

22 Mr. Emmer. And, when a stock purchase agreement is executed and the individuals are

23 signing, they're typically not in the same room. Is that right?

24 Secretary Lutnick. That is correct.

25 Mr. Grant. And do you have any idea of how Mr. Epstein would've come across the signatory
 28

1 page?

2 Secretary Lutnick. No. I find it inexplicable and unsettling.

3 Mr. Emmer. At this time, I'd like to introduce majority exhibit 3, and this is an email that you

4 are not a recipient of, dated May 4th, 2013, from Jeffrey Epstein to David Mitchell, discussing AdFin

5 and a potential meeting between you and Mr. Epstein.

6 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 3

7 was marked for identification.]

8 BY MR. EMMER:

9 Q Mr. Secretary, do you know who David Mitchell is?

10 A Yes.

11 Q How do you know him?

12 A He was the husband of one of my wife's friends.

13 Q Were you in contact with him during this period of spring 2013?

14 A I may have been.

15 Q What did you understand his relationship to be with Jeffrey Epstein?

16 A I don't recall knowing that he had any relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

17 Q And what we're specifically interested in here, one it says -- one of the lines says, "I

18 think I am seeing H. Lutnick later. Cool restaurant in Williamsburg."

19 Do you recall meeting with Epstein at a restaurant in Williamsburg in May of 2013?

20 A I did not. I mean, this seems to think that David Mitchell was planning on seeing me,

21 not Mr. Epstein. But, as I testified, the only times that I recall ever seeing him are the ones that

22 we've gone through already.

23 Mr. Emmer. At this time, I'd like to introduce majority exhibit 4, and this is an email chain,

24 dated May 28, 2018, between Jeffrey Epstein and a redacted email labeled as HWL. It is Bates

25 marked EFTA1050772.
 29

1 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 4

2 was marked for identification.]

3 Secretary Lutnick. Okay.

4 BY MR. EMMER:

5 Q We discussed your emails earlier, sir. Is this HWL email yours?

6 A Yes.

7 Q And the email chain begins with Mr. Epstein asking you, "What do you think the

8 prospects for AdFin are?"

9 Why would Mr. Epstein be emailing you directly about the prospects for AdFin?

10 A I don't know. AdFin was a company that's objective was to become an exchange for

11 internet ads. So it was pursuing companies that put out ads -- like banks do a lot of ads, you know,

12 big advertisers, and websites.

13 So it was marketing to everyone it could possibly find to use their services to buy their ads

14 cheaper, you know, for the advertiser to not use an ad agency and get the money directly and -- you

15 know, the advertisers are more efficient.

16 And so it would've been out talking to everybody. So it wouldn't surprise me that people

17 knew about it. I was not -- it wouldn't have been unusual. It was out there trying to make -- get

18 attention.

19 Q And, given your previous testimony as it relates to emails that you sent, is it safe to

20 assume that this response was you personally?

21 A This was -- this was me, because it says "HWL."

22 Q And, for the record, can you please read the email that you sent back?

23 A Yeah. But this stemmed on another note. So it must've stemmed from something else.

24 But it says -- you want me to read just --

25 Q Just what you sent.

 30

1 A Oh. "Producing revenue finally. This is their year. Next 12 months they need to

2 become economically self-sufficient."

3 Q And Mr. Epstein replied to your email and said, "Thanks. How long until Sherry is ready,

4 and can I buy my guesthouse?" To which you responded, "Probably 4 years," in parentheses,

5 "Pierre."

6 What is Pierre?

7 A So he had made a joke that he would buy my house as his guesthouse because I had

8 bought the top of the Pierre Hotel. It was an apartment. It still is -- a large, again, unfinished --

9 unfinished apartment. So he just got the hotel wrong.

10 Q It wasn't a serious offer by Epstein to purchase your townhome?

11 A It was a -- sort of a snarky joke -- or a joke.

12 Q And the committee understands, through public reporting and records, that an

13 Epstein-affiliated trust had owned that townhome that you moved into prior to you.

14 Did Epstein -- during your acquisition of that property, did Epstein have any role in the sale of

15 that property to you?

16 A No. I bought my townhouse from someone named Charles de Gunzburg (ph) who

17 owned it. So Epstein did not own the house. So I don't know what that's in reference to.

18 Charles de Gunzburg (ph) owned the house, and I bought the house from Charles de Gunzburg (ph).
 31

1 [12:04 p.m.]

2 Mr. Spectre. You testified earlier about having one distinct four-part email exchange with

3 Jeffrey Epstein ever. Is this that email chain?

4 Secretary Lutnick. This is two of it. It may have been, like, disconnected. Sorry, I can't -- I'm

5 holding my hands slightly separate. Sorry.

6 Mr. Terwilliger. Mr. Emmer, on that point, I do think, for the sake of completeness, I would

7 just proffer to the Committee that if it were to look at document EFT Alpha 01050718, you will see

8 that there was a prior communication between Secretary Lutnick and Jeffrey Epstein around the

9 building of the Frick expansion, and that is how we go from that subject to another note initiated by

10 Mr. Epstein.

11 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

12 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 5

13 was marked for identification.]

14 BY MR. EMMER:

15 Q At this time, I'd like to introduce what will be marked as majority exhibit 5.

16 And for the record, it appears that you are not a recipient of this email. And this is an email

17 from Jeffrey Epstein from "redacted," dated October 19th, 2009, and it is Bates marked EFTA243886.

18 And it appears to be a message passed along to Mr. Epstein from Rich Barnett about you wanting to

19 speak to Mr. Epstein.

20 Secretary Lutnick, who is Rich Barnett?

21 A He was someone who worked for me at Cantor Fitzgerald. So on my staff.

22 Q And we're reviewing an email from October of 2009.

23 Do you have any recollection of why you would have been trying to get in touch with Epstein?

24 A I don't have any recollection. But Rich Barnett was responsible for my sort of

25 construction and things associated with that. So it may have been that I was doing something at my
 32

1 house.

2 But I shouldn't speculate. I don't know. And I did not speak to him.

3 Q Thank you.

4 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7

5 were marked for identification.]

6 BY MR. EMMER:

7 Q At this time, I'd like to introduce what will be marked as majority exhibit 6 and 7.

8 Majority exhibit 6 is an email dated Monday, April 4th, 2011, from Lesley Groff, Jeffrey

9 Epstein's secretary, sent to Mr. Epstein, saying, "Howard Lutnick returned your call." And that is

10 Bates numbered EFTA654552.

11 Majority exhibit 7 is a calendar reminder dated the very next day, April 5th, which appears to

12 show a scheduled callback between you and Mr. Epstein. The reminder states, "JE to call Howard

13 Lutnick today. Call Matthew to organize." And that is Bates marked EFTA02191245.

14 For the record, it appears as though you are not a recipient of either one of these exhibits.

15 Secretary Lutnick, do you know who Ms. Lesley Groff is?

16 A I do not.

17 Q According to the email, you returned Epstein's call. We are early April of 2011.

18 Do you have any recollection of why you'd be returning a call from Mr. Epstein?

19 A As I think I said in my opening statement, he had something to tell me, or so I was told,

20 is the best of my recollection from 15 years ago.

21 So I must -- my office must have suggested I call him back to hear what he had to say, and we

22 were unable to connect by phone.

23 And that led to my second encounter with him, with my best recollection being I rang his bell,

24 walked into his foyer with my dog.

25 My wife waited outside with my other dog. That one wouldn't be good to bring into
 33

1 someone's house.

2 I waited for him to come down. He told me what he had to say.

3 And, remember, this is a long time ago. My best recollection was it had to do with

4 scaffolding.

5 BY MR. SPECTRE:

6 Q When you say scaffolding, are you talking about the construction on your property or

7 his?

8 A Yes.

9 Q So it was a discussion between neighbors about work that might affect one another?

10 A I think my best recollection is he was planning on doing scaffolding, which would sort of

11 be annoying to my property. So he was sort of telling me that he was -- something.

12 This is my best recollection of an inconsequential and meaningless conversation 15 years ago.

13 So I'm not -- I'm just saying that's my best recollection, was it was the topic of scaffolding. I can't give

14 you more. Anything else I tell you would just be speculating as to what it was about.

15 Q So, generally, when you say "inconsequential and meaningless," in this case you mean it

16 was just kind of a mundane conversation that would be normal between neighbors of any sort?

17 A Right, that he had some sort of plan that he -- in his house, and he was letting me know

18 that it would be annoying.

19 Q Thank you.

20 Mr. Emmer. And this meeting that you've referenced, during your hearing with the Senate

21 Appropriations Committee last year you discussed your interactions with Jeffrey Epstein and

22 mentioned an hour-long meeting at Jeffrey Epstein's home in 2011. Is this the same interaction that

23 you just described related to scaffolding?

24 Secretary Lutnick. Yeah. His documents, the documents in these files, had set aside an hour,

25 which is what I was referring to. The only interaction I recall was the one I just articulated. I didn't
 34

1 have another interaction.

2 His schedule said other things. That was wrong. The only interaction I've had I'm here

3 describing to you accurately what my best recollection, literally to my recollection, could be.

4 Mr. Spectre. Did the topic of massages ever come up again besides that first interaction you

5 had with Mr. Epstein?

6 Secretary Lutnick. Never.

7 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 8

8 was marked for identification.]

9 Mr. Emmer. At this time, I would like to introduce what will be marked as majority exhibit 8.

10 While we're waiting, I understand another member joined.

11 Can they please identify themselves for the record?

12 Mr. Walkinshaw. James Walkinshaw, Virginia-11.

13 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

14 Mr. Khanna. And Ro Khanna, California-17.

15 Mr. Emmer. And this is Bates marked EFTA475742. This is an email chain from May of 2018.

16 Mr. Lutnick -- or Secretary Lutnick -- do you recall sending this email.

17 Secretary Lutnick. No. As I've told you, if it says Howard Lutnick, it was sent by Matthew

18 Gilbert. And he's the one that sees them, meaning I don't. I don't see them. They are not literally on

19 my computer screen. They're on his.

20 Mr. Spectre. I'm sorry if you said this already, but just for the record, who is Mr. Gilbert to

21 you?

22 Secretary Lutnick. Mr. Gilbert is my longtime assistant in my office. He worked for me for

23 20 years.

24 Mr. Spectre. So this would be the normal way he would handle emails from all sorts of

25 people, not just Jeffrey Epstein?

 35

1 Secretary Lutnick. Correct.

2 The point was, if you emailed that email, it was to Matthew Gilbert. Everyone learned that he

3 would respond to them. Sometimes he would do it on his own. Sometimes he would do it in mine.

4 But it was always just to him. I didn't even read them. I didn't see them.

5 Mr. Spectre. Thank you.

6 BY MR. EMMER:

7 Q And this relates to the blocking of the views of the park from your townhome. Is that

8 right?

9 A Yes. The Frick was -- is an architecturally important structure built around the turn of

10 the century, or something like that, and it was beautiful. And they, the museum, had wanted to

11 knock down parts of it and build a high-rise, which we found unusual and bothersome.

12 Q And you may have discussed this in your opening statement, but why did you reach out

13 to Epstein related to the Frick?

14 A So the way the block works is there is a multi-unit co-op that is the first building inside

15 the number one or number three, and then there is Jeffrey Epstein's townhouse, and then mine and

16 then others on the other side.

17 There was a group of owners, tenants, people who lived in that building who were fighting

18 the Frick building it. They contacted me after a while. And then at some point they asked me if I

19 could contact Epstein to have him be involved.

20 But it was just neighbor -- they contacted me, asked me to contact him. But by asking me,

21 they asked, effectively, Matthew Gilbert, who then contacted him.

22 Q Secretary Lutnick, the majority's hour is coming to an end. I want to ask you some

23 general questions as it relates to Mr. Epstein's crimes.

24 For the record, did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with any

25 young woman or girl?

 36

1 A No.

2 Q Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive a massage from young women or girls?

3 A No.

4 Q During your interactions with Mr. Epstein, did Mr. Epstein ever discuss sexual acts of any

5 kind with you?

6 A No, other than that which he said he had the right kind of massage.

7 Q Did you ever see or meet any young woman or girl at Mr. Epstein's office or residence?

8 A No.

9 Q Did you ever have any sexual contact with any young woman or girl in the presence of

10 Epstein?

11 A No.

12 Q Did you ever receive any massages from any young woman or girl brought to you by or

13 introduced to you by Mr. Epstein or Ms. Maxwell?

14 A No.

15 Mr. Emmer. We will go off the record.

16 [Recess.]

17 . All right. We can go back on the record.

18 Good afternoon, Secretary Lutnick. My name is . I'll be conducting most

19 of the questioning for the minority today.

20 Before we begin the questioning, I'd like to note for the record that this transcribed interview

21 is not being videotaped. The majority has decided that the American people don't deserve to watch

22 the testimony that you will provide today. They have decided, instead, that the American people can

23 find and read the transcript of your testimony if it is released at some date in the future.

24 Today's transcribed interview, originally announced on March 3rd, appears designed to

25 preempt a motion to subpoena Secretary Lutnick's testimony by Congresswoman Nancy Mace, but
 37

1 that does not justify keeping these proceedings off camera.

2 Committee Republicans have claimed that this investigation is being conducted in the interest

3 of transparency for the public and for the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes.

4 To that end, the Committee has videotaped multiple prominent witnesses who have

5 appeared for testimony in the Epstein investigation, and the majority has released those videos

6 shortly after the testimony was complete.

7 The Committee has videoed and released the testimony of Ghislaine Maxwell, Darren Indyke,

8 Richard Kahn, and Les Wexner. Oversight Republicans videotaped the testimony of President Bill

9 Clinton and former Secretary Hillary Clinton, and those videos were released to the public 3 days

10 after the conclusion of their depositions.

11 The American people and the survivors of Epstein's crimes deserve the same of today's

12 testimony. The fact that Secretary Lutnick is present for a transcribed interview, rather than a

13 deposition, does not change our obligation to transparency.

14 Earlier this Congress, Oversight Republicans investigated the now-debunked theory that the

15 previous administration used an autopen to take action without President Biden's knowledge.

16 As part of that investigation, Oversight Republicans interviewed 14 former Democratic White

17 House officials. The overwhelming majority, 11 of the 14, were conducted as transcribed interviews.

18 Yet every single interview, including the transcribed interviews, was videotaped, and every single

19 video was released to the public.

20 Committee Republicans have set one standard for officials in a Democratic administration and

21 a separate and less transparent standard for officials in a Republican administration. That is a

22 political distinction, not a principled one.

23 To be clear, the minority welcomes Secretary Lutnick's appearance and testimony, but we

24 believe the American people should be able to watch today's interview and reach their own

25 conclusions about today's testimony.

 38

1 And with that, I will move to substantive questions.

2 Good afternoon, Secretary Lutnick. As I said, my name is . And as you

3 know, today's conversation will focus on your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

4 I would like to start with the interview that you gave to the New York Post in October of last

5 year. I know it was discussed a little bit in the previous round. Some of these questions might be

6 repetitive to some degree. I'll try to minimize that to the extent possible, but there is going to be

7 some overlap.

8 In that interview last year you described your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein in detail.

9 Substantial parts of that interview have since been called into question. So we will just go over the

10 interview one piece at a time and establish which parts are accurate.

11 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit A

12 was marked for identification.]

13 . So I will introduce as minority exhibit A a written transcript of the portion of

14 that interview that related to Mr. Epstein. I'll give you a moment to look that over if you'd like to.

15 Secretary Lutnick. Can I have a copy for the lawyer.

16 . Yeah. There were, I think, three in there.

17 Secretary Lutnick. Oh, this is multiple pages.

18 . Yeah. And I'll always hand you three of four for your counsel to look at.

19 Mr. Mayron. Who prepared this transcript?

20 . It was prepared by us. We confirm to you the accuracy of it. If you have some

21 specific reason to believe there's a part that's not accurate, of course we're happy to discuss that.

22 Mr. Mayron. The first line says, "I would be remised." Is that what was said?

23 . Yeah, that was our best interpretation. I think you could reasonably interpret

24 it as likely being "remiss."

25 EXAMINATION
 39

1 :

2 Q We're going to go over it one by one as well.

3 A That's all right. I'm just going to read it quickly.

4 Q Of course.

5 A Okay.

6 Q Great.

7 I'm going to break it up into pieces. The only thing I will do is skip the parts where the

8 interviewer interrupted you with words like "right" or "interesting."

9 Just starting at the outset, you were asked how well you knew Jeffrey Epstein, and you

10 started by saying, quote, "All right. So we are in number 11, and he lives in number 9."

11 So is it correct that you did -- and maybe still do, I'm not sure -- live at 11 East 71st Street in

12 New York City?

13 A Yes, I have a townhouse at 11 East 71st Street.

14 Q And is that what you were referring to here when you said number 11?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And as far as you know, is it correct that Mr. Epstein lived at 9 East 71st Street?

17 A Yes, that was his residence.

18 Q And is that what you were referring to here when you said number 9?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is it correct that those two homes are adjacent to each other?

21 A Yes.

22 Q They share a wall?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And then you said, quote, "So we renovate. We buy our house, and our house is

25 pigeons and mice. Okay, that's it. It was derelict."

 40

1 "Right."

2 "So we build. We rebuild our house. We move in in 2005."

3 And I'll stop there.

4 So I heard you say in the previous round you bought your home, I think, in 1997. Is that

5 correct?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q And did you know at the time that you purchased the home that the home had

8 previously been owned by Jeffrey Epstein and Les Wexner?

9 A I don't know. I knew I bought it from Charles de Gunzburg. So that I remember. I don't

10 know if I knew anything else.

11 Q Is it that you are not sure whether or not you knew at the time that the home had been

12 previously owned by Jeffrey Epstein and Les Wexner?

13 A When I bought the house, I didn't know. I don't recall knowing.

14 Q You don't recall whether or not you knew at the time. Is that right?

15 A Right.

16 Q Okay.

17 It is possible that you knew. It's possible that you did not know. Am I interpreting that

18 correctly?

19 A No. I don't recall knowing. I recall -- what I did know was I bought the house from

20 Charles de Gunzburg. That I know. I don't know if I knew who owned it previously, and I can't say as

21 I sit here today from whatever, almost 30 years ago, what I knew or didn't know. But I certainly

22 didn't know when I bought it.

23 Q I'm sorry. There's just -- there's a little contradiction between those two parts. You are

24 not sure today whether or not you knew at the time that the home was owned by Jeffrey Epstein. Is

25 that fair?
 41

1 A No. I bought my house from Charles de Gunzburg, and I do not recall knowing when I

2 bought the house who owned it previously.

3 Q Yes. So sitting here today, you could not be certain as to whether or not you knew at

4 the time who the previous owners were, is what I hear you saying.

5 A Well, I'm trying to be clear. I remember clearly I bought the house from Charles de

6 Gunzburg. He was the owner of the house. I don't -- I can't remember as I sit here today, almost

7 30 years later, whether I ever knew subsequently that I learned who owned the house previously. I

8 just don't remember as I sit here.

9 Q But the narrow question is just, at the time you bought the home, did you know

10 whether the home was previously owned by Jeffrey Epstein? And I think -- I think you're saying

11 you're just not sure either way, it was a long time ago.

12 A I don't think so.

13 Q I'm sorry. "No, I don't think so" is unclear for us -- for me. No, you don't think you

14 knew, or you're just not sure whether or not you knew?

15 A I knew I bought the house from Charles de Gunzburg. That I knew.

16 Q I'm crystal clear on that part. No doubt about it. The narrow question is just, at the

17 time of purchase, did you know that the home had previously been owned by Jeffrey Epstein?

18 A Before Charles de Gunzburg owned it, I don't remember whether I ever learned that at

19 that time. Meaning, at the time I purchased it, did I learn that? I don't know. I don't recall and I

20 don't know.

21 Q You don't recall whether or not you knew at the time you purchased it, right?

22 A When I agreed to buy the house, I surely didn't know. How is that? Is that helpful?

23 Q Well, it is, but it's not quite the same thing as the earlier statement. I'm not suggesting

24 that you did or did not know. It's just I think I heard you say, "It was 30 years ago, I don't recall

25 whether or not I knew."

 42

1 But then there have been a few statements that suggest, "No, I did not know that it was

2 previously owned by Epstein."

3 So I just want to pin down which of those it is.

4 A I don't know and I don't think I ever knew that Jeffrey Epstein owned the house that I

5 bought. Is that helpful?

6 Q Yes. Is that new information for you here today?

7 A That what?

8 Q That Jeffrey Epstein previously owned your home?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Okay.

11 A I don't know that to be true.

12 Q Has it ever been suggested to you or have you ever heard that Jeffrey Epstein previously

13 owned your home?

14 A I don't think that that's true. So, I guess, as I sit here today, I don't think that's true.

15 Q I got that, but that's not quite the question I asked.

16 Has it ever been suggested to you -- or have you ever heard somebody say -- that Jeffrey

17 Epstein previously owned your home?

18 A I can't recall as I sit here today.

19 Q Is it correct that you did some kind of large-scale renovation project on the home?

20 A In my home, yes, of course.

21 Q And is it correct -- and I think I heard you say it in the previous round -- that you moved

22 in in 2005?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Okay.

25 So the next part is, quote, "Okay. Jeffrey Epstein is arrested in, like, '08, I think, or something
 43

1 like that. So knock on the door. His assistant on like a Saturday says, 'Mr. Epstein, your neighbor,

2 would like to invite you over for coffee.'"

3 So I can cover the first part of that, which is that Mr. Epstein was arrested in 2006, but he did

4 plead guilty to solicitation of a minor in 2008.

5 A question for you is -- and I think you described it in some detail previously -- is it correct

6 that Mr. Epstein's assistant did knock on your door on a Saturday morning because Mr. Epstein

7 wanted to invite you over for coffee?

8 A Say that again?

9 Q Is it correct that, as far as you can recall, Mr. Epstein's assistant knocked on your door,

10 to the best of your recollection, on a Saturday morning, because Epstein wanted to invite you over

11 for coffee?

12 A I don't know if it was a Saturday or not, but I do recall that someone who worked for

13 him knocked on our door and invited us for coffee.

14 Q Was it framed as Mr. Epstein would like to invite you over for coffee?

15 A I wasn't -- the person didn't tell me. They told someone who worked for me. It was an

16 assistant of -- someone who worked for Epstein knocked on the door and spoke to someone who

17 worked for me and said, "Your neighbor would like to invite you over for coffee."

18 But it's not a conversation I participated in, so I'm trying just to give you the context.

19 Q I understand. You were not directly a party to that conversation?

20 A I was not.

21 Q The next part is, quote, "So my wife and I go next door. You know, we walk the seven

22 steps, right, to the next house for coffee. We share a wall, right? So it's in New York City. So he

23 invites us in, we have coffee and this, and he says, 'Do you want a tour?' We said, 'Great.'"

24 I'll stop there.

25 So is it correct that you and your wife did go over to Epstein's house that day?
 44

1 A Oh, I don't know if it was that day.

2 Q It might have been a later date?

3 A Correct.

4 Q Is it correct that Mr. Epstein did offer you a tour?

5 A Yes.

6 Q And is it correct that you and your wife did agree to the tour?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Prior to this interaction, did you have any knowledge of who Jeffrey Epstein was?

9 A Not that I can think of now, no.

10 Q I think in the interview you then said that he, meaning Epstein, has got a really big

11 house. I think we all at this point understand that that is an accurate statement.

12 And then you were asked whether you visited every room of Epstein's house, and you said,

13 quote, "He's got -- well, I'll tell you. So his house is, like, super big, really wide. And so he gives me a

14 tour in the living room -- big living room -- and then across from it is double doors. I assume it's the

15 dining room. And he opens the doors, and there is a massage table in the middle of the room and

16 candles all around and stuff."

17 And I'll stop there.

18 So is it correct that he did give you a tour and that you recall the tour as you describe it here?

19 A Yes. So just -- we were in the living room for coffee, and my recollection is we went

20 across the hall to the next room, which he opened the door. I assumed it was a dining room. And

21 that's the massage table, as is described here.

22 Q Is the part about the candles accurate to your recollection?

23 A Yes.

24 Q Were the candles lit?

25 A I don't recall.
 45

1 Q Okay.

2 And then you said, quote, "So I asked very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, 'Massage

3 table in the middle of your house? How often do you have a massage?' And he says, 'Every day.'

4 And then he, like, gets, like, weirdly close to me, and he says, 'And the right kind of massage.'"

5 I'll stop there.

6 Is that statement accurate to the best of your recollection?

7 A Well, I'm being sarcastic when I say I asked very insightful, cutting questions. I'm just

8 kidding.

9 And it's generally right. I'm not saying it's exactly, precisely right. But, generally, yeah, that's

10 what I recall.

11 Q As far as you remember, are any of these details sort of embellishments? Like, do you

12 recall him actually getting weirdly close to you?

13 A I think that's right. I think that's right, what I said.

14 Q All right.

15 And then you said, "Now, my wife is standing here. So she looks at me, and I look at her, and

16 we say, 'I'm sorry, we have to go.' And we left."

17 I'll stop there.

18 Do you recall that happening?

19 A Well, I don't -- I recall the sense of that. I don't recall exactly saying those words. But I

20 certainly recall the sense of that, that we decided we had to go.

21 Q Do you recall a verbal exchange to that effect or more of a general sense?

22 A I don't recall the precise nature of the words. A general sense that we excused

23 ourselves.

24 Q And that's what I was going to ask. Is it that you sort of cut off the tour early, as far as

25 you can remember?

 46

1 A Yes.

2 Q Did Mr. Epstein have any particular reaction to you sort of abruptly excusing yourself?

3 A Not that I recall.

4 Q Did you give a particular reason for needing to excuse yourself?

5 A I don't remember anything other than we decided to excuse ourselves.

6 Q And then you said, quote, "And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to

7 my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever

8 again."

9 I'll stop there.

10 Is it true that before you got back to your home you and your wife decided that you would

11 never be in the same room as Mr. Epstein again?

12 A I think the meaning of that is right, which is that we discussed that I would not put

13 myself in a situation with him again, that I would not have a personal or professional relationship

14 with him. I would avoid him.

15 That was the point of our discussion. It was an informal conversation that I'm recalling

16 20 years later, but the point of it is right.

17 Q And so that is - what I'd like to do is separate the theme or the idea from the literal

18 accuracy of the specific words.

19 So when you say, "My wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting

20 person ever again," is it -- it's not necessarily a literal decision that you will never allow yourself to be

21 in the room with him again, it's just that you don't want to build a relationship with him? Is that it?

22 A I would not establish a personal and professional relationship with him and I would

23 avoid him. So it was basically a conversation with me and my wife that says avoid. We came to the

24 discussion of avoid, which I did.

25 Q Was it, as far as you can remember, a decision that, as you described it, "If I see him in a
 47

1 room in the future, I will not be in that room"? Was it at that level? Or was that an embellishment

2 or sort of extra language there?

3 A Remember, it's a podcast 20 years later that I'm trying to make a point that I -- and I

4 didn't, by the way. I avoided having a personal and professional relationship with him. I avoided

5 him. So I think it was right.

6 I think the point of the podcast is right. What I said was right. I avoided him. And I never put

7 myself in a situation with him ever again personally, me, as a man. He had no boundaries. I avoided

8 him.

9 Q Yeah. So the question of what the interactions were later in the future, after the tour,

10 we'll walk through those. You've done some of that. I was just trying to get a really clear sense of

11 what you recall the decision being on the day of the tour.

12 It sounds like -- but, please, you tell me -- was it -- it's not that it was a literal decision to never

13 be in the same physical room as him, because that's what the words say, but I think -- are you saying

14 that that is not literally accurate?

15 A It was a podcast, and as I said in the next words, "That's my story." So it was a podcast.

16 I was describing 20 years later a conversation I had with my wife. It was informal. It wasn't trying to

17 be literal. It was trying to tell a story and be descriptive, which I thought was an accurate description,

18 which was that I would avoid establishing a professional and personal relationship with him. I would

19 avoid him. And I did.

20 So it says, "I will never." I wasn't -- I wouldn't say it was literal, meaning I was. He did tell me

21 something in the foyer while I had my dog.

22 But the point of it I think was accurate, actually, and literally the way I live, which was that I

23 did not establish a personal or professional relationship with him. I avoided him.

24 And I saw him two other times in his whole -- in my whole life, two other times. That's it.

25 Q So the next part says, quote, "So I was never in the room with him socially, for business,
 48

1 or even philanthropy." Is that statement true?

2 A Yes.

3 Q So is it your testimony that you were never physically in a room with Jeffrey Epstein

4 after the day of the tour?

5 A Again, this was differentiating me so that I would not put myself, Howard Lutnick, in a

6 position to be with him, alone with him.

7 So I was with my wife with him, as I've described earlier today, at a lunch on the island 7 years

8 later, and I did listen to him tell me about scaffolding in his foyer.

9 But I was not -- those were not social engagements with him by me, business engagements

10 with him by me, or philanthropic engagements with him and me as a person. I think that is accurate.

11 Q So I'm just focused on the single sentence, and I'll read it back. Quote, "So I was never

12 in the room with him socially, for business, or even philanthropy."

13 So is it your testimony that that sentence is, in a literal sense, accurate?

14 A It is accurate as to what I meant, which is I, Howard Lutnick, as a man, would not be in a

15 situation with him because I felt him gross and inappropriate and not having boundaries; that I would

16 not put myself in a room with him socially, which I did not, professionally, in business, which I did

17 not, and philanthropically, which I did not.

18 I have described in detail the only two other times I saw him, and they were not social, they

19 were not business, and they were not philanthropic for me, I.

20 I was -- I had lunch with him with my wife and family, which I have described in detail, but

21 that was not me putting myself with him, which is what I said and which is the point I tried to make.

22 Q And so is it that you agree you were in the room with him, full stop, but you don't

23 believe either of those instances you've described qualify as being social or for business or for

24 philanthropy, and that's how the sentence ends up being accurate for you?

25 A This is me talking. The point I made was that I, as a man, would not put myself -- and
 49

1 this is a discussion with my wife, right? It's an informal discussion with my wife as we walked from

2 his home where he said something inappropriate. And we discussed that I would not put myself in a

3 circumstance with him, and I would avoid him. And so I did. I avoided him.

4 I was never, Howard Lutnick, I was never in the room with him socially, for business, or

5 philanthropically, alone in a situation where I could be at all with a person who I found inappropriate.

6 So that's correct. It's not literally that --- I did not say and I was not intending to say that I was

7 literally never singularly in the room with him, including with other people, like my wife and my

8 children. That is not what I was saying.

9 I was saying I would not put myself in a position that would be with him alone. Why would I

10 do that? And I said I wouldn't and I didn't. So I thought it was accurate.

11 Q So from your point of view, just as a reader of a very simple, straightforward sentence, I

12 think we can agree that you were in the room with Jeffrey Epstein subsequent to the tour of his

13 home. Is that right?

14 A I, without my wife, was not in the room with him socially, for business, or philanthropy.

15 I was with him with my wife and family for lunch on the island in 2012, which I have gone through.

16 But I was never in a social situation with him, Howard Lutnick, I was never in a business

17 situation with him, Howard Lutnick, and I was never in a philanthropic situation with him, Howard

18 Lutnick, ever.

19 Q Yeah. It just -- it drifted a little bit from the question.

20 Is it correct that you were in a room with Jeffrey Epstein subsequent to the day of the tour?

21 A I'm going to stick to my answer. I thought it was descriptive and accurate.

22 Q But if I could just get an answer to the question itself, which is, is it correct that you

23 were in a room with Jeffrey Epstein in a literal sense subsequent to the day of the tour of his home?

24 A Again, I have described it correctly, and I'm going to stick to my answer.

25 Q And you interpreted, if I'm hearing it correctly, you interpreted the word "I" in this
 50

1 statement to mean you alone. Is that right?

2 A It's more than interpreted. I'm the one who said it. I'm telling you what I meant. I am

3 telling you what I meant. And that's what I said, which is that -- and I've already described it.

4 Q But is it right that you intended to convey -- as far as you can recall from the interview

5 last year -- you intended to convey with the word "I" that you were speaking only about yourself

6 individually, not in the context of anybody other than you and Epstein being in the room? When you

7 said "I," you just meant I, Secretary Lutnick, alone, was never in the room with Jeffrey Epstein?

8 A I think that's generally right. I'm talking to my wife informally as we leave, and we were

9 discussing me. That's the only person we were discussing, is me, and that I would avoid, and I did.

10 Q Do you -- and you may have touched on this. Apologies if you did. The island visit I

11 think you characterized as not social. Did I hear that correctly?

12 A No.

13 Q Would you characterize the island visit as social?

14 A I would describe a lunch with my wife and my family and the other couple and their

15 family, yes, I would describe that as a social lunch, meaningless and inconsequential social lunch. I

16 agree.

17 Q Okay. So then it is correct to say you were in a room with Jeffrey Epstein socially, but,

18 from what I hear you testifying, because there were other people present, this statement from the

19 interview was still accurate?

20 A This statement was accurate because as the person who said it in describing a

21 conversation, an informal conversation I had with my wife, I was describing that I would not be in a

22 room with him socially, that I would not put myself in that position, which I never was.

23 You are describing something entirely different than what I was expressing, which is a

24 conversation with my wife where she and I discussed that I would not put myself in there.

25 That's why I said "I." I didn't say "we." It would have been easy for me to say "we." I said, as
 51

1 I was discussing with my wife, "I" would not. So that's the difference.

2 I think I am -- I was accurate. I think I described it accurately. I don't want it to be modified in

3 any way. It was I would not be in the room with him socially, which I was not; for business, which I

4 was not; or philanthropic, which I was not.

5 So I believe that what I said was accurate. I believe what I said was accurate when I said it,

6 and I believe it now. So I didn't say "we" would never. I said "I" would never.

7 Q Thank you.

8 Sorry. So these last few questions, they have been focused on the sentence in which you

9 described not what you and your wife were talking about or what you were envisioning. It was the

10 sentence where you described the nature of your interactions with Epstein or lack thereof.

11 So you said, quote, "I was never in the room with him socially, for business, or even

12 philanthropy."

13 I think we've agreed the island visit was social in nature, but I've heard you testify that this

14 sentence is accurate as it reads there on the paper.

15 And I think the way that you arrive at that conclusion, if I am interpreting your testimony

16 correctly, is that when you said you had never been in the room with Epstein, you meant you alone,

17 not in the company of any other people.

18 Is that right?

19 A No, it's not. It's that I, Howard Lutnick, not we, me and my wife.

20 So when my wife and I are talking as we leave his residence, we discussed that I would not

21 put myself in that situation. So I didn't say we would not.

22 So we were with him for lunch on his island. I did not go alone. Whether there were other

23 people there or not is not the point I am making. I'm saying I, not accompanied by my wife, would

24 not put myself in a situation that could possibly be with this person even if he was with other people.

25 It's not "alone" alone, it's me unaccompanied, because we found him to be disgusting.
 52

1 Q And I'll just clarify. I have moved on and past the conversation between you and your

2 wife. That's not what I'm asking about.

3 What I'm asking about is the sentence from the interview in which you described your past

4 interactions with Jeffrey Epstein, not what you intended in 2005, what actually happened. And your

5 description of that was that you had never been in the room with him socially, for business, or even

6 philanthropy.

7 We all understand that you were in the room with him in a social setting, but you have

8 insisted that this sentence is accurate. So I just -- that does not make sense on its face, and I just

9 want to understand how that could be.

10 A "I" refers to Howard Lutnick. "We" refers to my wife and myself together. I didn't

11 say we didn't discuss that we would never be with him. We discussed that I, as a man, would not,

12 and I, as a man, was never.

13 So I think this is entirely accurate. Howard Lutnick was never with him socially,

14 philanthropically, right, or in a business setting. I was never.

15 I was with my wife on two meaningless and inconsequential interactions, but I was never with

16 him. So that was the point.

17 He was an inappropriate person, which we all learned in 2019, wildly inappropriate, a horrible

18 person, and I was never with him. I was never with him.

19 I was with him with my wife on two meaningless occasions, but I was never with him.

20 Therefore, it could never be anything remotely inappropriate because I wouldn't put myself in that

21 situation. That's the discussion I had with me and my wife.

22 Q And so really what it sounds like is what you intended to convey would have read, "So I

23 was never in the room with him alone socially, for business, or philanthropy." Does that accurately

24 characterize what you intended by the sentence?

25 A It would have, but then you would have been asking me, "Well, did you mean no other
 53

1 human beings in the room?" I was saying I wouldn't be there unaccompanied by, in this particular

2 example, my wife.

3 So I would not go unaccompanied. It didn't mean there couldn't be other people in the room.

4 I'm not saying alone. I'm saying I wouldn't go and put myself in a situation where I was

5 unaccompanied with him because he's disgusting.

6 So you never know what someone without boundaries, what might occur. I had no interest in

7 being there with him. That's why I used the word "I," I didn't use the word "we."

8 Q And so it sounds like, specifically, even narrower than that, you intended to convey, "I

9 was never in a room with him unaccompanied by my wife socially, for business, or philanthropy." Is

10 that the nature of the intention?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay.

13 I think that statement, as it reads, is a very simple, grammatical sentence and has been

14 interpreted by just about anybody who heard it as reading exactly how it says, quote, "I was never in

15 the room with Epstein socially."

16 Could you understand how folks, I think, have felt misled by that remark?

17 Mr. Terwilliger. I would object. I think you're just asking him to speculate what other people

18 thought.

19 :

20 Q Yeah. I mean, it's not in a legal sense. You surely are familiar at this point with the fact

21 that that remark, when it was made, was heard to mean what it says, which is that you were not in

22 the room with Epstein socially, for business, or philanthropy.

23 It turns out you were at the island socially. Folks have viewed that, I think, as a willful

24 misrepresentation, I've heard your testimony here as to what the intention was.

25 Is there a perception on your part that that statement, as you said it, was misleading?
 54

1 A It was not misleading, no. You now know what I said, and you know what I meant, and

2 it is clear from the words that I was accurate.

3 Q And the phrase "one and done" was used several other times. "That's my story. One

4 and absolutely done."

5 Just from a general point of view, you described two subsequent interactions after the tour.

6 "One and done" suggests what it suggests, "one and done."

7 Did you understand that there was more than one subsequent interaction when you used the

8 phrase "one and done"?

9 A Again, the point I was making is that I wanted to be clear on a podcast that I was never

10 with him, which I was not.

11 As I said, I was never with him, meaning, I was never in a situation with him. I was with my

12 wife. And they were meaningless and inconsequential.

13 But contextually, so people would understand, I was never with him in any other manner. I,

14 Howard Lutnick, one person, was never in a situation.

15 So you couldn't take it out of context. I was never with him.

16 Q And we'll get to some other folks' questions here. But what does the phrase "one and

17 done" mean to you, or what is your understanding of the meaning of that phrase?

18 A I avoided him, and I was never with him. As a person, as a man, I was never with him.

19 . I'm going to ask some other questions from Members of Congress that are

20 here today.

21 Mr. Khanna. Thank you.

22 Mr. Secretary, you had said, quote, "What happened in that massage room, I assume, was on

23 video," when you were with Jeffrey Epstein.

24 How did you know that it was on video? Did Mr. Epstein ever tell you he recorded people?

25 Secretary Lutnick. No, that was me just speculating for a podcast.

 55

1 Mr. Khanna. Did you ever see any recordings?

2 Secretary Lutnick. No.

3 Mr. Khanna. Did you have any reason to know, other than speculation, that there were

4 videos taking place?

5 Secretary Lutnick. No. It was just speculating for a podcast.

6 Mr. Khanna. Well, what was the speculation based on?

7 Secretary Lutnick. Just raw speculation. Nothing.

8 Mr. Khanna. And you also said that Epstein was "the greatest blackmailer ever," that's how

9 he made his money.

10 What was the premise behind that? I mean, how did you know that?

11 Secretary Lutnick. I was just speculating for a podcast.

12 Mr. Khanna. But what was -- I mean, you speculate on a lot of things. There is a reason you

13 speculate. What was the reason? Why did you believe that to be true?

14 Secretary Lutnick. He seemed to have a lot of money. That was why I was speculating. I was

15 just speculating.

16 Mr. Khanna. Do you know anyone that he had blackmailed or heard anyone that he

17 blackmailed?

18 Secretary Lutnick. No.

19 Mr. Khanna. Have you heard anyone say that they felt pressure with him and had to pay him?

20 Secretary Lutnick. No.

21 Mr. Khanna. Did you believe that he engaged in blackmail?

22 Secretary Lutnick. It was just my speculation at the time.

23 Mr. Khanna. Is it still your belief?

24 Secretary Lutnick. No.

25 Mr. Khanna. Now you believe he didn't engage in blackmail?

 56

1 Secretary Lutnick. Yes. I don't believe he did.

2 Mr. Khanna. So you said that you have a different view of it than you did on that podcast

3 now?

4 Secretary Lutnick. I do.

5 Mr. Khanna. And why is that?

6 Secretary Lutnick. Because there have been people from the administration who have all of

7 the details who have said so, and I credit what they've said.

8 Mr. Khanna. First Lady Melania Trump said that, "Each and every woman should have her day

9 to tell her story in public...Then, and only then, will we have the truth."

10 Do you agree with the First Lady?

11 Secretary Lutnick. I support the First Lady, sure.

12 Mr. Khanna. Do you agree with that statement?

13 Secretary Lutnick. I don't agree or disagree. I just support her.

14 Mr. Khanna. She also said that she supports the full investigation and release of the

15 remaining Epstein files.

16 Do you support her on that?

17 Secretary Lutnick. I'll leave that to the administration. I don't have an opinion one way or the

18 other.

19 Mr. Khanna. Well, I mean, do you support her on the fact that she's calling for an

20 investigation and releasing the Epstein files?

21 Secretary Lutnick. Again, I'll leave that to the administration itself.

22 Mr. Khanna. You don't have an opinion on whether you support the First Lady's call?

23 Mr. Terwilliger. I think the question's been asked several times and answered.

24 Mr. Khanna. You said that technically you were accurate in this podcast about never wanting

25 to be in the room with Epstein.

 57

1 As a matter -- not as a legal matter or as a matter of legality, but do you have some regret

2 that you should have been more forthcoming, if you had to do it again, and say, "I did have these two

3 encounters" that you say were trivial.

4 Secretary Lutnick. No. This was a podcast, and I think I made the point reasonably.

5 Mr. Khanna. You have no -- yeah, look, I actually believe you, that you didn't go and try to do

6 what some of the other disgusting men did with Epstein. But you don't have some sense that maybe

7 you should have been more forthcoming?

8 I'm not saying that it's sort of career ending. I'm just saying you now see that a lot of people

9 are saying that you weren't fully transparent.

10 Would you have said the same thing, or do you have some sense of, "Maybe I should have

11 mentioned a couple more things"?

12 Secretary Lutnick. No. For the podcast --

13 [Crosstalk.]

14 Secretary Lutnick. No, But I'm saying for the podcast, I made the point, even if you look at it,

15 you'd say, "Well, Secretary Lutnick said he wasn't with the guy. And now that I have full information,

16 he actually wasn't with the person." I mean, that's true.

17 Mr. Khanna. You acknowledge the fact that you had these things that came out in the files.

18 Do you think before that you should have just said something at some point, whether it was a

19 podcast or not?

20 You know, no one's perfect. I'm just saying, in retrospect, do you think you should have been

21 a little bit more forthcoming on those two incidents and maybe it wouldn't have become as big a deal

22 if you had said it?

23 Secretary Lutnick. I thought I described an informal conversation with my wife from 20 years

24 ago to make the point I was trying to make. I thought I made it reasonably. I tried to make it

25 reasonably.
 58

1 Mr. Khanna. So you have no regret?

2 Secretary Lutnick. No.

3 Mr. Khanna. I'm done.

4 Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you.

5 Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for being here today as well. I appreciate the time.

6 I'm just having -- I'm struggling with this. "One and absolutely done," does that mean -- were

7 you trying to imply that you had only met with Jeffrey Epstein once when you said that?

8 Secretary Lutnick. I was trying to let the podcast understand that I was never with him. He

9 was a disgusting person, which we all learned after 2019.

10 Mr. Subramanyam. Oh, I know that.

11 Secretary Lutnick. But I was never with him.

12 And the point I was making was that I was never with him and that the people listening to the

13 podcast should understand I never put myself in a situation where I was with him where anything

14 could have possibly happened.

15 That's why I said -- that's why I described the conversation I had with my wife reasonably

16 accurately, informally, but reasonably accurately.

 59

1 [1:21 p.m.]

2 Mr. Subramanyam. When you're sitting down with him talking about scaffolding, aren't you

3 with him in that room? Even if your wife is there, you're both with him, right?

4 Secretary Lutnick. Sure.

5 Mr. Subramanyam. Are you and I with each other right now? Are we in the same room right

6 now?

7 Secretary Lutnick. Yes.

8 Mr. Subramanyam. There's other people here, right, but you and I are with each other right

9 now. So how can you say that you were not with him subsequently? That's what I'm trying to

10 understand.

11 Secretary Lutnick. I think I reasonably described an informal conversation I had with my wife

12 that would be understood by people who are married, that we had an encounter with someone who

13 was inappropriate and that we discussed that I would avoid him. And I think everybody who's

14 married understands that when they have a conversation with their wife that the wife can say, "You

15 avoid him." It is a conversation that everybody I think understands. And to suggest that I was being

16 literal, that I would literally never be in the room with him is not what I intended. It was my words.

17 Mr. Subramanyam. I understand.

18 Secretary Lutnick. And I'm telling you, that is not what I said. I said, it was a conversation, an

19 informal conversation with me and my wife that I think people who are married would understand,

20 that my wife was saying to me, "Avoid him. He has no boundaries." And you know for a fact that I

21 did avoid him. I literally avoided him.

22 Mr. Subramanyam. I don't know that for a fact, because there's two other occasions where

23 you didn't avoid him. You did not have to go to his island, so you didn't avoid him in that case. You

24 did not have to go to talk to him about scaffolding, so you didn't avoid him then either.

25 But when you say one and done, that means one occasion in which you were with him, even
 60

1 with your wife. So would you say that that was not an accurate statement to say one and absolutely

2 done? And remember, this is two separate times you're talking. You're talking once about with his

3 wife -- about the conversation with your wife rather, and then you're also separately saying, so I was

4 never with him -- never in the room with him socially.

5 So that was separate. You were not talking about the conversation with your wife here. You

6 said, one and absolutely done. That's after you said, that's my story. So were you implying that you

7 had only been there -- been with him once?

8 Secretary Lutnick. I just tried to describe in detail. So I'll stick to my description which I just

9 gave you in the same exact topic.

10 Mr. Subramanyam. I'm going to switch gears a little bit. Have you talked to the Commerce

11 Department staff about your inclusion in the Epstein files or appearance here today?

12 Secretary Lutnick. Yes.

13 Mr. Subramanyam. What were those conversations about generally?

14 Secretary Lutnick. That I would be attending, and that I have a lawyer.

15 Mr. Subramanyam. Have you used Commerce Department resources or staff to discuss this

16 or talk about your defense today?

17 Secretary Lutnick. No.

18 Mr. Subramanyam. And have you had conversations with President Trump about Jeffrey

19 Epstein or the Epstein files generally or your involvement with any?

20 Secretary Lutnick. I'm not going to discuss conversations I had with the President, but you

21 shouldn't take it one way or the other. I'm just not going to have any discussion on it. But please

22 don't take from that one way or the other with respect to the conversation.

23 Mr. Subramanyam. Have you had conversations with Attorney General Bondi, or

24 former-Attorney General Bondi or the current attorney general about the Epstein case?

25 Secretary Lutnick. No.

 61

1 Mr. Subramanyam. Did this ever come up during your vetting, your living next door to Jeffrey

2 Epstein or any association with him?

3 Secretary Lutnick. Not that I can remember, no.

4 Mr. Subramanyam. And the last question, you mentioned that you were -- you found him

5 disgusting. You found him gross, right, and so you didn't want to be involved with him. Why would

6 you then go to his island with your family at that point? What was the decision-making process to go

7 to his island at that point, in 2012, so many years later?

8 Secretary Lutnick. I don't know. I don't know.

9 Mr. Subramanyam. You don't know?

10 Secretary Lutnick. I don't. I don't remember, and I don't know.

11 Mr. Subramanyam. Do you recall the decision-making process with your staff as far as

12 deciding to go to the island? Did they say this is a good idea? What was the decision-making process

13 like? Do you remember?

14 Secretary Lutnick. I don't. As I said earlier, the fact that they -- that his staff knew I was going

15 there and pursued us is inexplicable and unsettling, but I don't remember.

16 Mr. Subramanyam. Thank you.

17 Ms. Ansari. Secretary Lutnick, it was discussed at the top of the hour that your testimony

18 today is not being videotaped. Did you refuse videotaping of your testimony?

19 Mr. Terwilliger. The Secretary made an agreement to be here voluntarily. It was worked out

20 that we would do a transcribed interview.

21 Ms. Ansari. So was it the majority's decision to do a transcribed interview, or was that a

22 request that you all made?

23 Mr. Terwilliger. Any conversations that I've had to the representation of my client will be

24 privileged. We're here. We're here to voluntarily answer your questions. We've been answering

25 your questions.
 62

1 . I'm sorry, if I could? Sorry, Congresswoman.

2 Ms. Ansari. Would you refuse? Would you be open to having this on video?

3 Secretary Lutnick. I'd prefer to just answer questions about my three meaningless and

4 inconsequential meetings as briefly as possible.

5 Ms. Ansari. Okay. All right. So I know you've been using that phrase quite a bit, so I just want

6 to dive into that a little bit. You talked a lot about your wife today and how she is really the person

7 who warned you about Jeffrey Epstein, and you two made an agreement for you not to, you know,

8 be involved with him in any way. Obviously, in 2008, we know Jeffrey Epstein was convicted as a

9 child sex trafficker and abuser.

10 Then, in 2012, of course, you did go to the island with your wife, who was the original person

11 who you, you know, had doubts with together, and you mentioned her many times. How did your

12 wife feel about going to the island in 2012 if she had such deep concerns?

13 Mr. Terwilliger. Excuse me, Congresswoman. You said something that I think really does

14 need to be corrected for the record. You said in 2008, he'd been convicted as a trafficker. That's not

15 accurate.

16 Ms. Ansari. As a child abuser.

17 Mr. Terwilliger. That's not accurate.

18 Ms. Ansari. What was he --

19 Mr. Terwilliger. He was ultimately, in the State process in Florida, was charged with

20 solicitation of a minor. As a former prosecutor, that is not the same as child trafficking.

21 Ms. Ansari. Okay. So solicitation of a minor by Jeffrey Epstein in 2008. Four years later,

22 Mr. Lutnick and the entire family go to the island. Your wife had deep concerns many years before,

23 in 2005, because of a massage table. How did your wife feel in 2012?

24 Secretary Lutnick. I don't want to accept any of the premise of the conversation, but I'll try to

25 answer it for you. But I don't accept the premise, so --

 63

1 Ms. Ansari. The premise being?

2 Secretary Lutnick. The premise being you're expressing views of my wife, that you're

3 expressing. So we were uncomfortable with what he said. He was gross. And so, we discussed that I

4 would avoid him and not have a personal or professional relationship with him, which I did not.

5 With respect to visiting, having lunch with my family and another family and the whole crowd

6 going to his island for lunch, I don't remember why we went. But to try to answer your question in

7 more detail, I don't remember him registering as a sex offender. And if my next door neighbor was

8 registered as a sex offender and I knew it, I would remember that.

9 Ms. Ansari. So you would remember it, presumably.

10 Secretary Lutnick. Wait, just let me finish, if you don't mind. Let me finish. And I think if my

11 wife knew that her next door neighbor was a registered sex offender, then she would remember

12 that, and both of those things would've meant that we wouldn't have gone. So while I don't

13 remember why we went, right, when I think back on it, I just -- as I sit here today, I can't imagine --

14 Ms. Ansari. Sure.

15 Secretary Lutnick. -- we would've known, because if we had known --

16 Ms. Ansari. You didn't know --

17 Secretary Lutnick. -- I wouldn't have gone. So that's my point. So I'm just trying to think of

18 that --

19 Ms. Ansari. If I could just --

20 Secretary Lutnick. I'm just trying to describe it to you --

21 Ms. Ansari. Sure.

22 Secretary Lutnick. -- so that could be --

23 Ms. Ansari. But it was a prominent case, and so you knew, at the bare minimum, that he had

24 solicited a minor.

25 Secretary Lutnick. I don't know that. And as I said --

 64

1 Ms. Ansari. You don't recall it being all over the news, the media?

2 Secretary Lutnick. I don't.

3 Ms. Ansari. I mean, I was a child when this happened, and I remember all of it.

4 Secretary Lutnick. I don't. I find that a --

5 Ms. Ansari. It's just interesting that you didn't know that your neighbor, Jeffrey Epstein, one

6 of the most famous individuals in this country, even at the time, was all over the news for soliciting a

7 minor in 2008.

8 Secretary Lutnick. He became famous in 2019. I didn't know him to be famous before this.

9 Ms. Ansari. So when did you find out?

10 Mr. Mayron. Please let the Secretary finish.

11 Ms. Ansari. I actually can ask questions whenever I'd like. Thank you.

12 When did you find out that he was a registered sex offender?

13 Secretary Lutnick. Well, I certainly, along with everybody else in the country, learned

14 enormous amounts about him in 2019 when --

15 Ms. Ansari. When did you first find out?

16 Secretary Lutnick. First find out what?

17 Ms. Ansari. That he was a registered sex offender or that he had solicited a minor.

18 Secretary Lutnick. As I said, I don't remember, but what I tried to tell you before was that

19 when thinking back, it would've been something that I would've, right. If I knew I would've -- I

20 wouldn't -- if I knew, I would've been concerned about him being -- living next door, and I wouldn't

21 have gone to the island.

22 So while I can't sit here and say, you know, 20 years ago or however long ago this was, but I

23 can tell you what I remember -- I'm just trying to be helpful, because I've done nothing -- and we all

24 know I have done absolutely nothing wrong, inappropriate. You know, I only interacted with this

25 person three times my whole life, all, as you know, meaningless and inconsequential, never with
 65

1 other people, nothing. So I'm just trying to be helpful to give you context to the extent I can.

2 Mr. Walkinshaw. Mr. Secretary, earlier Mr. Khanna asked you about your speculation that

3 Epstein was blackmailing people. You responded that you subsequently changed your mind about

4 that after hearing from officials in the administration. Who did you speak to in the administration

5 about Jeffrey Epstein blackmailing or not blackmailing people?

6 Secretary Lutnick. It was just public comments from administration officials. It wasn't --

7 Mr. Walkinshaw. I haven't seen those comments from administration officials that he didn't

8 blackmail people.

9 Secretary Lutnick. That's my best recollection was I learned it from public --

10 Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. You refused to answer a question about any conversation you

11 might've had with President Trump about today's testimony. I just want to be clear, you will not

12 answer questions about any conversations you had with President Trump about today's testimony?

13 Secretary Lutnick. Right. But I don't want you to think anything one way or another. I'm not

14 even suggesting I had them. I'm just saying, I won't go there.

15 Mr. Walkinshaw. How about any time before President Trump was elected President or

16 during the 4 years that Joe Biden was President, any conversations with Donald Trump when he

17 wasn't President about Jeffrey Epstein?

18 Secretary Lutnick. No.

19 Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. I'm struggling sitting here listening to you try to describe and define

20 "I" and "I" as a man. I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is you're saying. I think if the American

21 people saw it on video, they would be struggling as well. But you said on the podcast, "My wife and I

22 decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again." You said, "Married

23 people will understand that."

24 So your position is you were so turned off by him, he was so gross, something weird sexually

25 going on in his house, that you, as a man, Howard Lutnick, did not want to be in a room with him
 66

1 alone. But you were okay with your wife and family being in a room with him? I'm struggling to

2 understand that. I'm a man, too, with a wife and a child. If I felt someone was so gross, more than

3 me not wanting to be in a room with him, I would not want my wife and child to be in a room with

4 him. But you're very definitive that it's you, you, you, you, Howard Lutnick, that couldn't be in a

5 room with him.

6 Secretary Lutnick. I had an informal conversation with my wife, and that's what we discussed,

7 and I would think that most people who are married would understand. They have a conversation

8 with their wife, that someone says something inappropriate, gross, gross, that when you leave with

9 your wife, she says, You should avoid that guy. He's gross, right. And I did. So I don't think that's

10 like -- I think that's kind of inconsequential, which means just avoid him, which I did. So I don't

11 understand actually. I would think people who are married would understand that conversation with

12 their wife, when they met someone who was inappropriate, to say you should avoid him, and I did.

13 Mr. Walkinshaw. Respectfully, Mr. Secretary, I think most people who are married would say,

14 "We should never be in a room with him again." But have you had any conversations with anyone in

15 the White House, setting aside the President, you're refusing to discuss conversations with the

16 President, any conversations with anyone who works in the White House about today's interview?

17 Secretary Lutnick. No.

18 Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. Thank you.

19 . We can go off the record.

20 [Recess.]

21 Mr. Emmer. We'll go back on the record.

22 Chairman Comer. Yeah. I just want to say something. I've been listening to the press

23 conference the Democrats ran out to say, and they have said several things that just aren't true that

24 you said -- and Walkinshaw, especially. He's in a tough race against a transgender candidate, and I

25 think he's -- I don't know what he's doing. I don't understand what it takes to win a Democrat
 67

1 primary, but it's very unfortunate, because I think the transcript will reflect what they just went out

2 and said is completely false. And that's very disappointing, because this is an important

3 investigation. We're trying to learn everything we can to see if there's any way to hold people who

4 committed crimes accountable for terrible things, and I'm doing everything in my ability to have a

5 serious, credible investigation.

6 Mr. Secretary, you've come here voluntarily. We appreciate that. And I just felt like I needed

7 to say that on the record. So I'll yield back.

8 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

9 BY MR. EMMER:

10 Q Mr. Secretary, is there something that you want to clarify on the record?

11 A Yeah. I just want to make sure everybody understands that I have a Department of

12 Commerce lawyer with me at the end, and so -- and they said, did I use any Commerce resources. I

13 had scheduling, which talked to people at Commerce, and I did send my opening statement to my

14 comms director so he could know what I was going to say, but that's it.

15 Q Thank you. I understand that you've answered a lot of similar questions over the last

16 2 hours, so the majority will continue to ask questions that you have not yet answered.

17 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 9

18 was marked for identification.]

19 BY MR. EMMER:

20 Q At this time, I would like to introduce what will be marked as Majority exhibit 9. And

21 while he's passing it out over the next however many minutes, we're going to walk through specific

22 emails that were released as part of the Epstein Transparency Act that reference the Secretary, of

23 course, in his personal capacity.

24 Mr. Terwilliger. Mr. Emmer, may I just ask you a quick question?

25 Mr. Emmer. Yes, sir.

 68

1 Mr. Terwilliger. Sorry to take your time. We're still on the record?

2 Mr. Emmer. Yes.

3 Mr. Terwilliger. I noticed that, especially after what the chairman just said, Congressman

4 Walkinshaw said he had not heard about certain statements that Secretary Lutnick talked about

5 administration officials. I just wanted to be clear for the record that Ranking Member Garcia of this

6 Committee sent a letter where those things were mentioned, so I guess he's not aware of his own

7 ranking member's letter.

8 Chairman Comer. Honesty is not his specialty.

9 Mr. Emmer. Thank you.

10 BY MR. EMMER:

11 Q So this is an email from the Dubin Breast Center to Jeffrey Epstein with the subject line,

12 "A special invitation from Eva Andersson-Dubin." Secretary Lutnick, I'm aware that you are not a part

13 of the email chain, but do you recognize this flyer?

14 A Not offhand, no.

15 Q Were you involved with the Dubin Breast Center?

16 A I gave them money.

17 Q And how do you know Glenn and Eva Dubin?

18 A I met them through the hospital.

19 Q Did you understand the Dubins to have a relationship with Mr. Epstein?

20 A I learned that later, after 2019.

21 Q What did you learn as far as their relationship?

22 A That Ms. Dubin had her prior existing relationship with Mr. -- this individual.

23 Q Were you involved with selecting individuals that would be invited to this event?

24 A No.

25 Q And for the record, did you attend this event?

 69

1 A I don't remember.

2 Q So you would not know if Jeffrey Epstein attended the event as well, or if Jeffrey Epstein

3 attended this specific event?

4 A I have told -- I have been here and answered every question of every interaction I've

5 had, so I do not recall any other interaction, so --

6 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 10

7 was marked for identification.]

8 BY MR. EMMER:

9 Q At this time, I'd like to introduce what will be marked as Majority exhibit 10. And this is

10 Bates marked EFTA 2671545. This email is dated November 11, 2015, and was released by the

11 Department of Justice as a part of the Epstein Files Transparency Act.

12 Secretary Lutnick, we discussed your emails in the previous hour. Did you send this email?

13 A I did not.

14 Q It was sent on your behalf. Is that right?

15 A It was sent by Matthew Gilbert.

16 Q Do you recall this event taking place with Secretary Clinton?

17 A Yes.

18 Q What do you recall of that event?

19 A Classic fundraising political event.

20 Q And what was your relationship with Secretary Clinton at this time?

21 A We had a historical relationship. She was very helpful to New York and my company

22 after 9/11.

23 Q Did you understand Secretary Clinton to have a relationship with Mr. Epstein?

24 A No.

25 Q And as far as the event, for the record, do you have any recollection of interacting with
 70

1 Jeffrey Epstein at this event?

2 A I did not.

3 Q You --

4 A And he wasn't there.

5 Q Okay. In January of 2017, there was a Brioni flagship store opening that Mr. Epstein was

6 invited to. Do you recall this event?

7 A No.

8 [Lutnick Majority Exhibit No. 11

9 was marked for identification.]

10 BY MR. EMMER:

11 Q At this time, I would like to enter what will be marked as Majority exhibit 11, and this is

12 Bates marked EFTA 2229721. I'll direct your attention to page two. This is an invitation from John

13 Paulson sent to Lesley Groff, who then forwarded it to Mr. Epstein. The subject line of the email

14 reads, "UJA Wall Street dinner honoring Howard Lutnick." Secretary Lutnick, do you recall this event

15 taking place?

16 A Yes.

17 Q And why did this event take place?

18 A It was a record-setting fundraising event for UJA.

19 Q And the email is from John Paulson. Did you direct Mr. Paulson to invite Jeffrey Epstein?

20 A No.

21 Q And it appears as though Mr. Epstein did, in fact, donate. Did you solicit that donation?

22 A No.

23 Q Did you thank Mr. Epstein for that donation for the --

24 A No.

25 Q -- event?
 71

1 A No.

2 Q And as far as the event itself, presumably you attended the event. Did you see

3 Mr. Epstein, or interact with Mr. Epstein at this event?

4 A No.

5 Q Secretary Lutnick, you mentioned traveling with your kids in a previous hour. Did you

6 have a private nanny?

7 A Sure.

8 Q As we've seen from the Epstein files that have been released, it appears that a nanny

9 that was in your employ had sent her resume to Mr. Epstein. Do you know anything about that?

10 A I have no knowledge about it at all.

11 Q And for the record, you never encouraged any of the nannies that were under your

12 employment to reach out to Mr. Epstein in any respect?

13 A That's correct. None.

14 BY MR. SPECTRE:

15 Q Are you aware of any employee of yours later working for Jeffrey Epstein?

16 A No. No employee of mine, I don't think, ever worked for Mr. Epstein.

17 Q Are you aware of any employee of Jeffrey Epstein ever later working for you?

18 A No.

19 Q Thank you.

20 [Lutnick Majority Exhibits Nos. 12 and

21 13 were marked for identification.]

22 Mr. Emmer. I now would like to introduce what will be marked as exhibits 12 and 13. And as

23 they're being handed out, Exhibit 12 is Bates marked EFTA 1868626; exhibit 13 is Bates marked EFTA

24 2189429. And I'll give you a chance to review the exhibits and note that it appears as though you are

25 not a recipient of these emails.

 72

1 Mr. Terwilliger. Are we done with the prior exhibit, Mr. Emmer?

2 Mr. Emmer. Yes, sir.

3 Secretary Lutnick. Oh, I should just make clear, I don't know if like some gardener ever

4 worked for, you know -- like, I wouldn't possibly know that one way or the other, so I'm just --

5 Mr. Spectre. We're only asking you to testify to the best of your knowledge and recollection.

6 Secretary Lutnick. Okay. I know. Well, you had a preamble in the beginning, and I'm just

7 trying to be responsive.

8 BY MR. EMMER:

9 Q Thank you.

10 So during the previous hour we talked about interactions that you had in April of 2011. I just

11 want to clarify for the record, these two exhibits imply that there is a meeting on May 1st. Would it

12 be your impression that that is the meeting related to the scaffolding?

13 A It is. So this -- this is incorrect. I did not have drinks.

14 Q Thank you.

15 Mr. Grant. Secretary Lutnick, you have answered questions regarding Mr. Epstein and

16 Ms. Maxwell a numerous amount of times at this point across different hearings around Congress

17 and here today. Is there anything that hasn't been asked of you that you think that we should know

18 as part of this investigation?

19 Secretary Lutnick. No.

20 Mr. Emmer. Thank you. We'll go off the record.

21 [Recess.]

22 . We can go back on the record.

23 :

24 Q Secretary Lutnick, a few more questions. Like I said earlier, if it's repetitive or it's been

25 asked and answered, I'm going to try and avoid it. I can't promise I'm going to succeed in every case,
 73

1 but I will try.

2 With respect to the tour of the home that we discussed, just a few general questions about

3 what you recall. Did you see any women in Epstein's home on that tour other than your wife?

4 A You're talking about which --

5 Q 2005.

6 A You're talking about his townhouse in New York?

7 Q Yes, the tour of Epstein's home in New York that you received in 2005.

8 A So his residence, okay. So what's the question you'd like?

9 Q Did you see any women in the home other than your wife?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you see any photos or other images that were sexual or sexually suggestive?

12 A No.

13 Q Did you see any video cameras or other recording devices?

14 A No.

15 Q Apart from the massage table and candles, did you see anything that raised a concern

16 on your part about Mr. Epstein?

17 A No.

18 Q Did you see anything in the home that was related to President Trump?

19 A No.

20 Q At some point in that New York Post interview when you were discussing the concept of

21 blackmail, you had something to the effect of, "That's how Epstein had money." I just wanted to ask,

22 did you have any direct or indirect knowledge of Epstein making any kind of money through

23 blackmail?

24 A No. I was just speculating.

25 Q Did you, then or now, have any knowledge regarding the relationship between Jeffrey
 74

1 Epstein and Les Wexner?

2 A What's the question again? Sorry.

3 Q Did you, either back then or sitting here now, have any knowledge of the relationship

4 between Jeffrey Epstein and Leslie Wexner?

5 A At some point I came to learn that they were friends.

6 Q Did you ever hear, directly or indirectly, that blackmail may have had any component of

7 their relationship?

8 A I can't remember one way or another. I remember something about that their

9 relationship ended badly, but I don't have any particular relation -- particular knowledge.

10 Q Do you recall any more detail other than that?

11 A No.

12 Q Do you have any knowledge regarding the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and

13 Leon Black?

14 A What's the question again?

15 Q Do you have, either back then or sitting here today, have any knowledge regarding the

16 relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Leon Black?

17 A No, other than I think they had a relationship of some form.

18 Q Is that based on public reporting as far as you know or any kind of personal knowledge?

19 A I don't have any personal knowledge.

20 Q Have you ever heard, directly or indirectly, that blackmail may have had any role in the

21 relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Leon Black?

22 A No particular knowledge, no.

23 Q Okay. The part of The New York Post interview, there was a part that related to the

24 existence of videos and videos possibly being traded in exchange for Mr. Epstein's plea deal. I just

25 wanted to clarify, did you have any knowledge of such a trade occurring?
 75

1 Mr. Terwilliger. Mr. can I just ask a quick question. You say New York Post

2 interview; you mean the Pod Force One podcast, correct?

3 . I do, indeed.

4 Secretary Lutnick. Would you mind repeating the question?

5 :

6 Q Sure, of course. There was a part toward the back or the end of the podcast, the

7 discussion about Jeffrey Epstein. There was a discussion about the possible existence of videos of

8 powerful men getting massages, and there might be something compromising on those videos. I

9 think you had discussed the possibility that if those videos existed, maybe Mr. Epstein had traded

10 them to the Department of Justice in exchange for a lenient plea deal. I just wanted to ask whether

11 that thought was based on any personal knowledge of yours or was just a theoretical thought?

12 A I was just speculating for this podcast.

13 Q A few general questions. They're similar to some that you've answered but I think

14 phrased slightly differently. Prior to it becoming public knowledge, did you ever have direct or

15 indirect knowledge of the sexual abuse that Jeffrey Epstein was committing against minors and

16 young women?

17 A No.

18 Q Prior to it becoming public knowledge, did you ever have direct or indirect knowledge of

19 the sexual abuse that Ghislaine Maxwell was committing and facilitating against minors and young

20 women?

21 A No.

22 Q Have you ever engaged in sexual activity with a person introduced to you by Jeffrey

23 Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?

24 A No.

25 Q Have you ever received a massage from a person introduced to you by Jeffrey Epstein or
 76

1 Ghislaine Maxwell?

2 A No.

3 Q Okay. My colleague has a few questions related to Epstein's various properties.

4 :

5 Q So, Secretary Lutnick, you answered questions previously about a number of Epstein's

6 properties, but we wanted to cover a few that had not been raised yet specifically. So did you ever

7 visit Epstein's home in New Albany, Ohio?

8 A No.

9 Q And what about any of the apartments that he rented in London?

10 A No.

11 Q Okay. And then a few general questions about his properties in general, whether or not

12 they're ones that you personally visited. Did you ever hear any rumors or allegations of minors

13 visiting Epstein at any of his properties before they became public reporting?

14 A No.

15 Q Okay. Did you ever see or hear of large numbers of young women visiting Epstein's

16 New York home?

17 A No.

18 Q Or any of his other properties?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. And do you recall hearing about any prominent figures, individuals visiting any of

21 Epstein's homes?

22 Mr. Terwilliger. Could you be a little more specific about which homes, timeframe, what you

23 mean by prominent figure?

24 :

25 Q Sure. I think prominent figure can include politicians, well-known wealthy individuals,
 77

1 celebrities generally. And other than what you've read about through public reporting since, did you

2 ever have any personal knowledge of Epstein hosting -- we can go property by property if that's

3 easier -- hosting any such individuals at the New York home?

4 A No.

5 Q In Palm Beach?

6 A No.

7 Q In New Mexico, his ranch?

8 A No.

9 Q In Paris?

10 A No.

11 Q And any of the other properties?

12 A No.

13 Q Okay. Or flying on his planes or -- any of those people flying on his planes or taking any

14 other of his -- the modes of transportation that he owned?

15 A No.

16 Q Okay.

17 A Nothing other than whatever public, as you said --

18 Q Sure.

19 A -- public reporting, no.

20 Q And other than public reporting, do you recall hearing anything about Epstein throwing

21 parties at any of his homes?

22 A No.

23 Q Okay. Thank you.

24 :

25 Q I'm going to work through the chronology of some of these subsequent interactions
 78

1 between yourself and Mr. Epstein, some of which has been discussed today, some of which has not,

2 but I'll try to work through it efficiently. A starting question is, there was a file in the DOJ release

3 suggesting that in January of 2006 a driver named Arnold Garguilo was possibly coming to work for

4 you or at least was interviewing and had put Epstein down as a reference. Do you, sitting here today,

5 have any knowledge or recollection of that?

6 A No.

7 Q In July of 2006, as we've discussed, Mr. Epstein was arrested in Florida on charges of

8 soliciting prostitution. As far as you recall, were you aware of that arrest at the time?

9 A No.

10 Q Did you ever discuss the arrest with Mr. Epstein?

11 A No.

12 Q Did you ever discuss the arrest with other individuals at the time?

13 A No.

14 Q In June of 2008, Mr. Epstein pled guilty to State charges of soliciting prostitution and

15 soliciting a minor for prostitution. He was sentenced to 18 months in prison, of which he served 13,

16 most of which was on a work-release program. Were you aware of Mr. Epstein's plea at the time?

17 That's June of 2008.

18 A As I sit here today, I don't remember.

19 Q Do you recall ever discussing the plea with Mr. Epstein?

20 A I did not.

21 Q Do you recall discussing the plea with other individuals at the time?

22 A Not that I recall, no.

23 Q Do you recall when you first became aware that Mr. Epstein's plea involved a minor?

24 A Not that I recall, no.

25 Q Do you recall ever discussing Mr. Epstein's work release program with him?
 79

1 A No.

2 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit B

3 was marked for identification.]

4 :

5 Q I'm going to introduce an exhibit. It'll be Minority B. I think it's possible you've already

6 seen it today, so I apologize for that.

7 So this email is from October of 2009, and we can see that somebody emails Epstein saying

8 that Rich Barnett, who we understand was an Epstein employee, said that one of your employees

9 approached Barnett asking for Epstein's number because you, Mr. Lutnick, wanted to call or speak

10 with Epstein. What did you want to speak with Epstein about?

11 A I have no recollection of this.

12 Q No recollection at all?

13 A No.

14 Q Sitting here today, any theories or any memories that might possibly account for the

15 outreach?

16 A May have been construction-related. But I shouldn't speculate. I don't remember.

17 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit C

18 was marked for identification.]

19 :

20 Q I will introduce Minority exhibit C. I'll give you a moment to look it over.

21 So this is an email chain dated March 24, 2011. The subject is, "Howard Lutnick." And it

22 seems from Lesley Groff's email, Lesley Groff says that, "Howard Lutnick is on an airplane headed

23 overseas. His office would like to know if you would like to set up a call while he is away, or if you

24 prefer to speak with him on Monday, April 4th, when he is back." Epstein received that email and

25 replied that the 4th of April was okay.

 80

1 Do you recall, what was the context for this call being set up?

2 A I think this is the context of -- resulting in the interaction I had with him at the -- which I

3 discussed with you earlier, May 1st, which was about scaffolding. So I think this leads to that

4 interaction.

5 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit D

6 was marked for identification.]

7 :

8 Q Okay. And I will introduce Minority exhibit D, which is on a similar interaction. I can go

9 right to you next time. So this is an email chain starting on April 4th, which is the day in the previous

10 exhibit that looked like it was set for you and Mr. Epstein to have a call. This email chain here starts

11 with Lesley Groff saying, "Howard Lutnick returned your call." Mr. Epstein says, "call list tomorrow."

12 And the answer to that is, "Will do."

13 So we read those two exhibits together as there was a call set up for April 4th. Mr. Epstein

14 called you. You returned his call. Mr. Epstein planned to call you back the next day on April 5th. Is

15 that reading of those exhibits correct as far as you can remember?

16 A My understanding is, he had something to tell me, his office called, tried to arrange a

17 call, and we had difficulty connecting, until ultimately, he told me about -- my best recollection --

18 about scaffolding on May 1st. So this was all just not being able to connect before that time, which

19 ultimately led to that.

20 Q And do you remember, did the two of you ever actually speak on the phone in this back

21 and forth?

22 A We did not, or I wouldn't have needed to listen to him tell me about scaffolding in

23 person. He could've told me on the phone.

24 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit E

25 was marked for identification.]

 81

1 :

2 Q I will introduce Minority exhibit E. I'll give you a moment to look at that over.

3 Mr. Terwilliger. Mr. ?

4 Yeah.

5 Mr. Terwilliger. I believe there's several documents in between. It's your interview; you get

6 to do it however you want, obviously. I just would note for the record there are several other of

7 released files that show a back and forth between Epstein and his staff that reveal that there was

8 never a communication between Howard Lutnick. I'm happy to give you Bates numbers after the

9 fact.

10 . I appreciate. We're aware of the paper that you're describing --

11 Mr. Terwilliger. Okay.

12 . -- and just looking to save you a little paper.

13 Mr. Terwilliger. No, appreciate it.

14 :

15 Q So you've had a chance to look this over. It's an email dated April 27, 2011. It appears

16 to be either from, or from and to Lesley Groff, who was Mr. Epstein's assistant, and it looks like it lays

17 out a schedule for May 1st, Sunday, May 1st. And I think we understand, based on earlier testimony

18 today, that was the day that you went over to Mr. Epstein's house for the scaffolding discussion. I

19 just had some pretty targeted questions: One, did I hear correctly your testimony that the word

20 "drinks" is not accurate here? Is that right?

21 A That's right.

22 Q Okay. So to the best of your recollection, did you and Mr. Epstein just sort of sit there,

23 no refreshments, have your conversation about scaffolding, and that was it?

24 A Right. That's my -- my best recollection is I was in his foyer with my dog.

25 Q Do you recall seeing any of the other folks on this schedule while you were there? So
 82

1 Woody Allen is listed next on the schedule, Soon-Yi, and some other folks. Do you recall seeing any

2 other either individuals, or prominent individuals, during that visit?

3 A I did not see them, and I would definitely remember seeing -- meeting Woody Allen and

4 Soon-Yi if I did. So I did not see anyone.

5 Q Did you see any women during your visit who looked like they were under the age of

6 18?

7 A No.

8 Q How about any women who looked like they may have been under the age of 25?

9 A No.

10 Q Did you see any images during your visit that were either nude or sexual in nature?

11 A No. I was just in his foyer.

12 Q Did you notice any video cameras in the foyer?

13 A No.

14 Q Did you see anything at all during your visit that was suggestive of sexual abuse or was

15 otherwise sexual in nature?

16 A Say that again?

17 Q Did you see anything at all during your visit that was suggestive of sexual abuse or was

18 sexual in nature at all?

19 A No.

20 Q Do you recall, were you aware at this point that Mr. Epstein had pled guilty to sex

21 crimes involving solicitation of a minor?

22 A I can't remember, but I don't think so.

23 Q I'm going to move to your visit to the island in December of 2012 and just ask a few

24 questions that I don't think have been asked yet about that visit. To the best of your recollection,

25 when you visited Mr. Epstein's island in December of 2012, did you know at that point that
 83

1 Mr. Epstein had been convicted or had pled guilty to crimes involving solicitation of a minor?

2 A I don't remember, but I don't think so, no.

3 Q Do you recall having any concerns about visiting Mr. Epstein's island? You described the

4 unsettling nature of how that visit got started, Mr. Epstein knowing your travel plans. Do you recall

5 feeling unsettled from the get-go whether you had any concerns about making the visit?

6 A I just don't remember the discussion leading up to the visit.

7 Q Do you remember the unsettled feeling related to the initial outreach?

8 A I don't know that I knew that, so it's unsettling as I see it now. I don't know that I knew

9 that then.

10 Q In other words, can you just elaborate on that a little bit. You don't know that you knew

11 what exactly then?

12 A I do not know that at that time I knew that they had learned of my travel plans and

13 started to pursue me. I don't know that I knew that at that time.

14 Q Did you know that the invitation came from the Epstein side, whether that's Mr. Epstein

15 personally or his staff?

16 A It must have. While I don't remember, it must have. And how that came to be, I don't

17 know, but it must have, because it would've never have come from us.

18 Q Would it be logical to say that it was very likely your impression that the invitation came

19 from Epstein or his staff because it would be very strange for you to spontaneously invite yourself to

20 Epstein's island?

21 A That's right.

22 Q Okay. Do you recall at the time being confused at all about how Mr. Epstein would have

23 known about your travel plans?

24 A I just can't remember anything about it.

25 Q So that unsettled feeling, it's more in the present as you read these emails today?
 84

1 A Right.

2 Q Do you recall during your visit to Mr. Epstein's island seeing any women who looked like

3 they were under the age of 18, other than folks who were part of your party?

4 A No.

5 Q How about any women who looked like they were under the age of 25?

6 A No.

7 Q Did you see any images that were nude, sexual, or sexually suggestive?

8 A No.

9 Q Did you notice any video cameras?

10 A Not that I can recall, no.

11 Q Did you see anything at all that you can recall now that stood out to you as unusual or

12 concerning?

13 A No.

14 Q There were a few followups in the DOJ files in the 4 to 5 weeks after your visit to the

15 island -- I can introduce them, but I don't think I need to -- where Mr. Epstein's assistant would send

16 your staff various articles, some of them related to gaming legislation in the Virgin Islands or the

17 gaming industry in Antigua. Do you recall receiving -- through your staff, indirectly, do you recall

18 receiving any outreach of that nature?

19 A No.

20 Q Do you recall during your visit to the island in December of 2012 discussing with

21 Mr. Epstein or anyone else topics related to gaming legislation or the gaming industry?

22 A No.

23 Q You may have been asked this, and sorry if you were. What is your recollection of what

24 was discussed during that visit?

25 A I recall it basically as inconsequential, meaning nothing.

 85

1 Q But do you have any recollection of specifically what was discussed?

2 A I don't think anything was discussed. I was with my -- I was with a crowd of my wife, my

3 friends, another couple, and lots of children. It wasn't anything.

4 Q It could've been the weather; I'm just asking whether you have any memory of what

5 was discussed.

6 A No. I have no recollection of anything being discussed.

7 Q Okay. Well, we can agree that very likely something was discussed. In other words, you

8 and the group did not sit there in silence as far as you remember?

9 A Well, discussed. I mean, if you said chitchat, I'd go with that. Discussed sounds like

10 there was like a discussion, which I don't think there was.

11 Q No, I mean it?

12 A I would say chitchat, inconsequential chitchat, I'm sure was, I would agree with you, was

13 likely to have occurred.

14 Q I mean it in the literal sense. In other words, words being spoken in a conversation.

15 A For sure.

16 Q Okay. Do you have any recollection of what the nature of that discussion or chitchat

17 was?

18 A No.

19 Q Give me a moment. I'm going to show you something that the majority already

20 introduced, and I'm trying to find it so I don't have to introduce a second copy of it.

21 Mr. Terwilliger. Which one was it? I might have it right here.

22 . The UJA email, if you've got it.

23 Mr. Terwilliger. Yeah, let me check.

24 . Number 11. Majority Exhibit 11.

25 Mr. Terwilliger. Yeah. Just make sure that's the same one?
 86

1 . Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. Yes.

2 :

3 Q There is some language in the email from Mr. Paulson in the second paragraph of his

4 email, so I think it's going to be right over there. It starts with, "As chairman of the Wall Street

5 division." And I'll just read that sentence out loud: "As chairman of the Wall Street division, I want to

6 make sure that as a close friend of the Lutnicks, you are aware of the event and have the opportunity

7 to support them." That's the end of the sentence.

8 We know that this email, I'm sure, went to a number of people, one of which was

9 Mr. Epstein's assistant. Would you at this point, in 2017, have characterized Mr. Epstein as a close

10 friend of you or your family?

11 A No.

12 Q Do you have any recollection of how this list was formed?

13 A No.

14 Q Is it, as far as you can recall, possible that you or your staff provided an initial list to

15 Mr. Paulson? Because it would seem unlikely that Mr. Paulson would come up with his own list of

16 what he understands to be your network.

17 A Well, I have no knowledge of how he came up with his list.

18 Q There was a discussion of the AdFin deal, which we understand to be an agreement that

19 was initially entered into -- you know, I'll just introduce that exhibit, because I don't think it's been

20 introduced. So let's do that. All right. So I will introduce Minority Exhibit F.

21 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit F

22 was marked for identification.]

23 Mr. Terwilliger. Thank you, sir.

24 :

25 Q I'll give you a moment to look it over. You don't need to read every word. The cover
 87

1 page and the signatory pages are probably the focus of the questions.

2 A Okay.

3 Q So this is, from its title page, appears to be a stock purchase agreement or a series A

4 preferred stock purchase agreement for a company named AdFin Solutions, dated December 28,

5 2012. At the back of the document, Bates numbers ending in 9580 and 9581, we find Mr. Epstein, as

6 well as yourself, as signatories to the agreement. When this agreement was signed in December

7 of 2012, did you know that Mr. Epstein was also a signatory to the agreement?

8 A No.

9 Mr. Terwilliger. ?

10 . Yeah.

11 Mr. Terwilliger. Before we go forward, I've looked at all the documents related to AdFin, and

12 it has been widely reported erroneously over and over that these documents were executed in

13 December 28 of 2012. I believe, if you look into the files -- and we don't have time to do it today, but

14 I can give you team the Bates numbers -- you will see that there were multiple executions that

15 happened by different parties.

16 And so I would proffer to you today that there is documents within the DOJ-released Epstein

17 files that show that when Cantor Fitzgerald Venture Capital signed these documents, it was in -- it

18 was much later. It was -- give me one second, I'll give you the date. It would've been in 2013 in the

19 spring. So just -- I'm happy to get with your team afterwards and show you this, but that's been

20 widely, I think, misreported.

 88

1 [2:55 p.m.]

2 . I appreciate that. Thank you.

3 :

4 Q So, when you, in your capacity as president, signed this document, let's say in the spring

5 of 2013, did you know that -- whether Mr. Epstein was also a signatory to the agreement?

6 A No. And you should know, I don't think I heard about this investment till 2013, May. I

7 think the pitch was made to me in May of 2013, from the document. So it wasn't in December.

8 Q Great.

9 At the time that you received the pitch, ended up signing the agreement, did you at that point

10 know whether Mr. Epstein was also an investor or also a signatory to the agreement?

11 A No. No.

12 Q At what point did you learn that Mr. Epstein had been also a signatory to this

13 agreement?

14 A In this process.

15 Q In preparation for this interview?

16 A Right. And -- well, and after the Epstein files showed he was an investor. Otherwise, I

17 didn't know.

18 Q And the email chain that we looked at earlier from 2018, where Epstein was asking you

19 about the prospects for AdFin and you talked about "This is the year to generate revenue," that

20 exchange, you did not know during that exchange that Epstein was an investor in AdFin?

21 A I do not remember that I knew that, no.

22 Q Okay. As far as you can recall, were there any other communications that you and

23 Epstein had with respect to AdFin that have not been discussed here today?

24 A No.

25 Q Did you have any other business or financial dealings with Jeffrey Epstein?
 89

1 A No.

2 Q To the best of your knowledge, did any of your assets or any of Cantor Fitzgerald's

3 assets ever help finance any of Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell's crimes?

4 A No.

5 Q And that question applies to any alleged sexual as well as financial crimes. Still no?

6 A No.

7 Mr. Terwilliger. Mr. , apologies. I should've said this earlier. You made a statement,

8 and I just wanted to make sure it's clear for the record -- or if you'd like to ask the Secretary a

9 followup question -- you asked, "did you have any 'other' business dealings with Epstein. "

10 I think it's a -- I'm not accusing you of mischaracterizing. I just want to make it's very clear for

11 the record. I do not consider this a business dealing with Mr. Epstein. So there could not be yet

12 another.

13 :

14 Q Regardless of how one characterizes AdFin, I think the question and I think the answer

15 are clear. There are no business dealings other than AdFin that, to your knowledge, you or Cantor

16 Fitzgerald had with Jeffrey Epstein. Is that correct?

17 A Yes. To the best of my recollection, yeah.

18 Q And, as far as we can tell from the public records, the exchanges about AdFin and the

19 Pierre -- this is 2018 -- those are the last known communications that we have between yourself and

20 Mr. Epstein.

21 As far as you can recall, when was the last time that you communicated with Epstein directly

22 or indirectly?

23 A The 2018 emails that I've seen -- that one exchange is the only email exchange that I

24 have learned about in this process. And I don't recall any other.

25 Q And that includes not recalling any others that might come indirectly through an
 90

1 assistant or a staff member? Still the same answer?

2 A I wouldn't have -- I wouldn't have known of them other than through this process where

3 you've, you know, had emails. I don't -- I don't know. Maybe I don't engage in other people's emails.

4 Q And, as to any communications with Ghislaine Maxwell, you described meeting

5 Ms. Maxwell at an event -- I'm sorry; I don't recall -- approximately when and what was that event?

6 Rockefeller?

7 A Rockefeller Institute. I think that's the name, but I'm not certain. It's a research

8 institution in New York, science, and it was at a fundraising event for them.

9 Q And what do you recall about your interaction with Ms. Maxwell at that event?

10 A Of -- not consequence, meaning just I met her. That would be about it.

11 Q Do you recall who introduced you, if anyone?

12 A My best recollection was she was a guest of Leon Black.

13 Q Do you or did you have a personal or a professional relationship with Mr. Black?

14 A I have a what I would describe as a friendly, intermittent relationship with Mr. Black.

15 Q Do you recall -- I know "inconsequential" was the word you used, but what do you

16 remember specifically about what was said with Ms. Maxwell? Did she say, "Hey, it's great to meet

17 you; I know you live next door to Jeffrey," or anything of that nature?

18 A No, I have no recollection of any words spoken.

19 Q Did you have any understanding of why Mr. Black had Ms. Maxwell as -- was it a guest,

20 or he just was there at the same time as her?

21 A Actually, I don't know.

22 . And what year was that event?

23 Secretary Lutnick. I don't know.

24 :

25 Q There's been widespread public reporting that was also discussed earlier, the
 91

1 photograph from your visit to Mr. Epstein's island. There's reporting that that photograph was

2 initially included in a DOJ release, and then it came down, and then it was put back up.

3 My question for you is, have you had any direct or indirect communication with any

4 administration official regarding putting up, taking down, releasing any particular files from the DOJ

5 Epstein database?

6 A No.

7 Q Have you had any direct or indirect communication with any administration official

8 about the redaction of any file included in the DOJ Epstein database?

9 A No.

10 Q Have you had any direct or indirect communication with any administration official

11 regarding DOJ's process for reviewing and releasing files under the Epstein Files Transparency Act?

12 A No.

13 Q Have you had any conversations of any kind regarding the contents of the files that DOJ

14 reviewed pursuant to the Epstein Files Transparency Act?

15 A No.

16 Q Do you have any knowledge, other than public sources, of how the Department of

17 Justice settled on a timeline for releasing files under the Epstein Files Transparency Act?

18 A No.

19 Q Do you have any knowledge, other than public sources, of how many files the

20 Department of Justice has reviewed but withheld under the Epstein Files Transparency Act?

21 A No.

22 Q I'm going to ask a few questions -- we're getting to the end here. I'm going to ask a few

23 questions about President Trump. Some versions of them you have been asked. Others you have

24 not.

25 Just, firstly, how long have you known President Trump?

 92

1 A More than 30 years.

2 Q How did you originally meet?

3 A I don't remember.

4 Q Did you ever have a conversation with Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell about

5 President Trump?

6 A No.

7 Q At any time when President Trump was a private citizen, were you present for a

8 conversation about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell, where President Trump was -- then

9 Donald Trump -- was also present for?

10 In other words, were you ever in his company where Epstein or Maxwell were discussed?

11 A No.

12 Q At any time when President Trump was President, did you have a conversation with him

13 about Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?

14 Mr. Terwilliger. As we talked about before, we're not going to answer questions under

15 executive privilege or -- we're here to answer your questions. We're not going to violate executive

16 privilege.

17 . And that was a clarification from me whether it was just not wanting to

18 answer or whether it was an executive privilege assertion.

19 Mr. Mayron. There's a process for you to go through if you'd like to seek that information,

20 and I'm happy to talk with you afterwards if that's something you want to pursue.

21 . Yeah. Just the question here is whether it's on an executive privilege -- but I

22 understand that the question is not being answered. I got that. But I'm just asking whether it's an

23 executive privilege basis or just choosing not to answer the question.

24 Mr. Terwilliger. I have not gone through the formal process to do that. Let me rephrase my

25 objection. I think it's been asked and answered.

 93

1 :

2 Q Apart from public reporting, do you have any direct or indirect knowledge of the nature

3 of the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump?

4 A No.

5 Q Apart from public reporting, do you have any direct or indirect knowledge of whether

6 President Trump was ever aware of Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell's crimes prior to the crimes

7 becoming public?

8 A No.

9 Q To your knowledge, were your connections to Jeffrey Epstein or any interactions that

10 you had with Jeffrey Epstein ever discussed or examined in the course of your nomination or vetting

11 process for your current position?

12 A Ask -- please ask me again.

13 Q To your knowledge, were your interactions with Jeffrey Epstein ever discussed or

14 examined in the course of your nomination or vetting process for your current position?

15 A I don't remember that, no.

16 Q You have no recollection of that happening. Is that correct?

17 A Right.

18 Q Were you ever questioned by any law enforcement agency in connection with an

19 investigation related Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell?

20 A No.

21 :

22 Q One more question about the nanny whose resume was sent to Mr. Epstein's staff. Do

23 you -- I'm not asking you her name, but do you know the name of the person that's in question here?

24 A No.

25 Q Okay. Let me ask it a different way.

 94

1 Do you know whether that person whose resume was sent to Mr. Epstein's staff was one of

2 the nannies who accompanied your family on your visit to his island in December 2012?

3 . We can do the -- it's going to be hard to do it without the exhibit.

4 Okay.

5 . One last exhibit for you. I promise.

6 . It will be minority exhibit G.

7 [Lutnick Minority Exhibit G

8 was marked for identification.]

9 Mr. Terwilliger. Thank you.

10 :

11 Q I'll give you a second to look that over.

12 So you can see here, this appears to be a resume of an individual. The individual's name is in

13 the subject line. In the body -- this is from Richard Kahn who was on Epstein's staff -- in the body it

14 says, "Attached is a resume of Lutnick nanny."

15 To your recollection is name in the subject line, is that the nanny who accompanied you on

16 the trip to Mr. Epstein's island?

17 A I don't know.

18 Q Do you possess any communications, documents, or other materials related to

19 Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell that are not already publicly available?

20 A Do I possess? No.

21 . And then I think we had a few more questions from a Member, right?

22 Ms. Ansari. I am fine --

23

24 Q Okay. Then I will ask you, is there anything else that you would like to share with the

25 committee before we go off the record?

 95

1 A Just a small thing, which is that I didn't grow a beard until after Mister -- this individual

2 Epstein was dead. So that mask that you showed me, I never had a beard before that.

3 Q I got it.

4 A And I never had a goatee either. So I just wanted to just say that these things are not

5 possibly about me.

6 . Those are clear on the transcript. Thank you.

7 With that, we can go off the record.

8 [Whereupon, at 3:08 p.m., the interview was concluded.]

 96

1 Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee

4 I have read the foregoing ____ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the answers made by

5 me to the questions therein recorded.

9 _____________________________

10 Witness Name

11

12

13 _____________________________

14 Date

15

16

17